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Pearl Harbor was a TRAP TO CATCH A (JAPANESE)

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theories' started by dexter livingstone, Jan 7, 2012.

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  1. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The thing to understand about that little "A" following my name means that when I ask for something here, I expect it. I've asked you for a source, I expect to see it in your next post.

    I'm in a good mood, following the football game last night, so I am a bit more loose with odd posts today.

    However, anymore gibberish like this and I will help you to find the door.
     
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Don't get too upset George, his location says Vancouver, and the only Vancouver I know of is in British Columbia. So, I think he is referring to himself.

    But if you have taken offense, you could always "Slap" him:D
    Maybe it would knock some sense into him...

    P.S. Don't worry, I don't think there will be too much of a bruhaha over said slapping incident. Heck, Ike would probably approve.
     
  3. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    You have a point there. "Toronto" could very well be "Vancouver" according to his atlas. Toronto is similar to "Tofino", which is close to Vancouver -- and both start with a "T".

    Hmm. The slapping is tempting at this moment. But with my luck, Drew Pearson would find out about it, mention it on his radio show, and then I would be relieved of command. :)
     
  4. CTBurke

    CTBurke Member

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    Lots of gibberish in this thread! One of the "false assumptions" for the Conspiracy Theorists (Dexter L?) is that no American carriers would have been harmed, only "obsolete" battleships. The carrier USS Enterprise was SCHEDULED to be in Pearl on the night of the 6th, but got delayed by severely stormy weather (affecting her destroyer escort, not so much the Enterprise) and were thus NEAR Hawaii instead of IN it. Enterprise had just come FROM NEAR ENEMY TERRITORIES at Wake, so wasn't "out of harm's way" then either. Of course we know that many of Enterprise's aircraft got shot down that morning when landing ahead of the carrier's appearance. Lexington, too, was possibly "in harm's way" in the Midway area. Since Enterprise turned out to be THE fightingest ship in the US Navy during WW II, it would have been kinda DUMB to have her deliberately taken out in the opening moments of the war.

    For the most part, "P.H. Conspiracy Theorists" haven't really done their homework, and "cherry pick" events that only support their theory, rather than see what events also dispute their pet theory. As with Stinnett ("Day of Deceit"), it also helps to FABRICATE that which you cannot prove!!
     
    USS Washington and formerjughead like this.
  5. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    There's a Vancouver Washington...I got your back George.
     
  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The carriers went into "Indian Country" not to safety. And it was Kimmel who decided when they would leave and return, not Washington.

    This chart is of interest. The daily positions are taken from the deck logs of the carriers.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Ah, Burke. I was hoping you'd chime in here. This one comment is worth the price of admission.
     
  8. dexter livingstone

    dexter livingstone recruit

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    "Cherry Picking" is an Intelligence term, and any Theory is likely using this to some extent; as well as any defense or prosecution argument, sales promotion, medical diagnosis, dating topics of discussion, real estate purchase or investment portfolio advice. Elements seem to be given weight according to want! I just want to examine what we know, don't know, are too scared to contemplate, as well as be open to surprises that may come up during the discussion.

    I initiated this thread because frankly, something was starting to bug me about Pearl Harbor. So much fact and fiction is out there, that I felt I needed a little help in sorting out what was real and fanciful.

    CTBurke's info on the Enterprise, is particularly chilling. Is there anything in Japanese communications that indicates that they knew where the Enterprise was heading. Sinking a carrier in the channel by a midget sub would have been easily accomplished. Unloading aircraft may have been a precautionary measure. Do you believe in God whipping up a storm to save the Enterprise (Divine Wind)? I am at a loss to try and subscribe the delay to chance and what that could have meant. (Just saw the map, two US AC's at sea, one just left and one should have been back) Seems the Japanese carrier forces were delayed in a storm.

    I would never contemplate FDR just "Letting it happen," he would surly expect the US forces to quickly gain the upper hand on a carrier/land battle. This is really my point in all this, no one forsaw PH, it was too illogical, unless there is a factor that we do not know, like a coordinated attack by the Nazis. This is why looking for that "forth wheel, icing, trol" is so important to me. If it is not there, fine. If elements are there, not so fine! If elements drop on my plate, our plate ww2f, while we were discussing this, that would be remarkable.

    Key elements:
    1. 100g detonator test site. (I have eyewitness accounts and US photos)
    2. Korea test site (Can we get more on this)
    3. Long range aircraft (Need one identified)
    4. Enrichment devices (Looks like they had one, reported ended up in South America)
    5. Motives for using the bomb on Japan (Imminent threat on US soil?)
    6. Kursk reference (Lets take a closer look)
    7. Evidence Soviets mobilized chemical weapons after the Kursk reference, and pulled them offline again with Nazi assurances that it would never be used on them again. (Should be something there if it happened)
    8. Japan's knowledge of The Enterprises movements, and the Lexington. Wacking two could have been too much for the Japanese to resist and go it alone, had both been in the harbor at once? ( Looks like they never are in the harbor at the same time, less of a motive)
    9. Nazi aircraft refueling temporary station in Ireland, Iceland, Greenland, St. Pierre, etc. Executive planes still land in Ireland to top up fuel on their way to New York.
    10. Possible missing American aircraft that could have fallen into Nazi hands. Several references to flying boats going missing,could one be forced down and commandeered for this mission. Tons of PBY's were made in Vancouver, were any sold to private parties or South Americans countries? The Nazi trip to Antarctica in 1938 used a ship launched flying boat, could that have been used as a delivery platform. Flying boats could make submarine refueling a natural solution.
    11. Submarine launched V2, or V3.How about a captured victory ship used to sneak up and launch a V2. (With or without an atomic warhead).
    12. Electric submarine tethered on cross ocean trip and then let rip for New York Harbor. Many of these were tested, as high speed short range delivery systems. Before the war, German subs made cross ocean commercial voyages carrying outside hull strapped cargo. What is wrong with submarine detaching a floater in the harbor? How about a jumping floater that would rocket 2500 feet into the air for an airburst? Please never say that the Nazi couldn't make it to New York for the party! It is more probable of several attempts failing, then none! Hitler apparently ranted and raved about hitting New York, was he habitually dismissed as a mad man?

    13. Sixty scientists were apparently killed in the Jonas valley complex SIII in the middle of Germany near the end of the war, Geiger counters recently showed strong signals where it is reported that an atomic test occurred. There seems to be much going on there, with a reported US army ban on material taken from there at the end of the war. Could the weak link have been these scientists? Did someone take the yellow cake home in a lunch box?
    14. There is another location experimental mine complex with elevators up into a castle.
    15. A flooded Nazi V2 complex has recently been pumped out inside a mountain within the last year. Might be something here.
    16. The National Redoubt (Some kinda final stand mountain complex) in Austria would be a natural location for an enrichment site)
    17. French stocks of Thorium are reported to have been taken into Germany. Some suggest thorium can be enriched.
    18. Heavy water was produced in Norway by Trolls. Haha.
    19. There may be a scientific connection with a Norsk Waffen SS combat soldier at Kursk. I feel a trol here. (Any of the scientists at Jonas valley Norwegian?)
    20. …? Any one think of anything else?
     
  9. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Well I see this has degenerated into a the standard: "I'll answer your question with 20 more non related questions in an effort to distract everyone from the fact I have no idea what I am talking about" tactic. Clearly the act of a person trying to fulfill their need to get the last word in.
     
  10. freebird

    freebird Member

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    Not to be a spelling Nazi here, but it's "Taranto" not "Toronto", you won't impress many folks with your wisdom if you make mistakes like that. ;)
    (Although, living in Western Canada, the idea of bombing Toronto does have some appeal... :p )





    What do you mean by China?
    Assuming that you mean Government of China, in 1941 there is no (unified) Government of China.

    There are three main groups in China in '41:
    The KMT (mainly backed by Western powers)
    Chinese Communists (Soviet backed)
    Manchuko & (Last Emperor) Pu Yi - (Japanese backed)
    In addition, there are several petty warlords aligned with the 3 major powers.





    Uh, well no, they didn't.
    China had been invaded by Japan in 1937, and the US didn't intervene.
    In fact, both the US & UK were selling oil & steel to Japan up until 1941.
    So the "voice at the back of the room" stopping invader dead in their tracks is a bit of a fantasy.
    Almost done? In 1941?

    During the second half of 1940, the Communists embark on the Hundred Regiments Offensive, causing serious disruption to Japanese efforts to consolidate gains in China.
    Taking a look at the map, there's not really a lot of Japanese gains from 1940-1941, "bogged down" seems like a more accurate description of the war in China
    View attachment 15470
     

    Attached Files:

  11. dexter livingstone

    dexter livingstone recruit

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    Help me out here, with your understanding of the Japanese situation in un-unified china, why the heck would they open up a war with the Americans and the British!! There is a big question mark here! I propose that Pearl Harbor was one part of a two-pronged attack to put America into permanent Isolation. Where did the Japanese intend to get their steel and oil from? ? I can only surmise that with America sucking it's wounds, England would be done for and Germany would have plenty of steel and oil for Japan's needs.

    "When your right foot is stuck in mud, you don't tend to kick somebody bigger than you with your left foot!"

    Darn, sorry about the analogy thing guys,
    I heard I was not very good at it!

    peace
    brothers:rolleyes:
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Well, there is no "big question mark here" concerning the Japanese decision to go to war.
    1. Japan is going "broke" with their militarization programs and their ongoing war in China. Japan would likely have run out of government funds by mid-1942, had she not chosen to go to war.
    2. Japanese leaders knew this was a "now or never" decision. Either she goes to war now, with slim hopes of winning, or she waits to go to war and has no chance of winning. The Japanese were well aware of the several ongoing American programs to rebuild it's military, and those programs, once completed, would make any attempts at war unwinnable. The American warship programs were expected to start bearing fruit sometime in late-1942. Indeed, the early programs were already completing warships and slowly changing the naval balance in America's favor.
    3. It was not so much steel, as it was oil that Japan needed to keep her military hopes alive. Hence her decision to strike "South" towards the oil fields of the Pacific. With those oil fields in her possession, she wouldn't need to buy oil from anyone, including Germany!

    You heard correctly about your awful analogies...
    It would be better said that "If your falling of a cliff, you may as well try to fly. You've got nothing to lose."
    This was the view taken by Japan's military leaders. They had fallen off the proverbial "cliff", and had decided to try and "fly" by going to war. If they lost the war, they were just as finished as if they had not gone to war, but if they were victorious over the Allies...
     
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    No sir, you have no wish to discuss what is known or unknown about Pearl Harbor, you just want to discuss what is too SILLY to contemplate(Germany had nuclear weapons in 1941, and would have used them too, but "Oops", they were "lost"). You're conducting a "fishing expedition", that borders on, if not actually intrudes, into "what if"/science fiction/Harry Turtledove territory.


    The info is far from "chilling". It is only one of the innumerable coincidences that fuel the "What If" crowd. Several "what ifs" postulate what if the American carriers had been caught in the attack. BTW, the USS Enterprise would not have been sunk in the channel
    by a midget submarine, as she would have been safely docked by that time.

    The flying off of aircraft before a carrier docks had been an established practice for some some time.

    If God whipped up the storm that saved Halsey and the USS Enterprise, then he is a vengeful God because, later in the war, he smacked Halsey twice with typhoons(December '44 & June '45).

    Kido Butai was not "delayed" as you say by a storm, they had intended to use the roiling North Pacific to provide cover and concealment for there forces during the transit to Pearl Harbor.


    You are incorrect on this point, no Americans "foresaw" Pearl Harbor, because they were too blinded by their own prejudices too allow for such belief.
    Take, for instance, the A6M2 Zero. Very few persons actually believed Clair Chennault's reports of new Japanese fighter with incredible performance, even though the Chinese had captured a Zero fighter. The personal prejudices of the American military just would not let them believe that they had been outdone by the Japanese.

    These prejudices against the Japanese are evident in your hypothesis. The Japanese could not reasonably decide to go to war with the Allies - It has to be because Germany had some super secret weapon........
    Sorry, Dexter, but the Japanese decided on their own to go to war, and it had nothing to do with a non-existent German atomic bomb.


    Points 1 through 6 are nothing but an unsubstantiated "fishing expedition". Even the authors of the books on German atomic weaponry admit that they have no absolute proof of a German atomic detonation, and further research has also failed to provide such information.

    Point 7 is simply to preposterous to believe. The Germans had the "bomb" in 1943 and detonated it at Kursk, but promised the Soviets they would not to use it again
    ??? That is simply to illogical to put any credence in. Why would Germany promise not to use a weapon of such power, when the Soviets had no defense against it, whereas the Germans could, and did, prepare for defenses against chemical weapons. Not to mention Hitler's track record of broken promises, the Soviets have no reason to believe any German promises. Nor would it explain how it was never used again, even though the German military was literally being CRUSHED by the Soviets in 1944-45.

    The only real reason the Germans never used it again, was because it NEVER existed in the first place.

    Point 8. The USS Lexington and USS Enterprise were both in Pearl as of November 28th when the USS Enterprise and her group left for Wake. The USS Lexington did not leave Pearl for Midway until December 5th.

    Points 9 & 10. Another "fishing expedition"...What if...What if...What if...
    FYI, Germany had her own flying boats that could have been used for this supposed scheme, and did need to resort to any shenanigans to "capture" a PBY.

    Points 11 & 12. Another "fishing expedition"...What if...What if...What if.... Germany did not successfully launch a V-2 until October, 1942. Far to late for your simultaneous blows on December 7th, 1941. Nor did Germany have any "electroboots" at the time, and did not consider such until the failure of the Type XVIII became apparent in late-1942 - early-1943. Again far too late for December 7th.

    You can't have a "party" in New York in December, 1941, when you don't have any "party favors" to liven up the party.

    Points 13-19 More "fishing expeditions"...What if...What if...What if...
    Lots of words jump out here. Words like - reported(several times), could, might be, suggest, and may be. None of the words give me any faith that any of these points have any basis in factual evidence, nor do they convince me of your position.

     
  14. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Cant be bothered to read the whole thread...Its seems to go the same way as before with others...Just a few things...Toronto is in Canada...Fiendish British...Dont ever trust em...

    For all the trap and ambush work the Yanks seemed to think of...Good old Perfidious Albion...Give a yank tea and sympathy...throw in a bagel instead of a crumpet and they eat out of your hand...Now..Afghnaistan...all round to my house for tea and crumpets...I might throw in the odd donut...But I see America has plenty of their own.
     
  15. dexter livingstone

    dexter livingstone recruit

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    Note to ww2f members: Please do not read the following, my translation program made the Germans talk funny. Highlighted are a few interesting points. Not intended to be proof, just something of interest.


    Utube: ist sind Jonastal by holgerjochen
    Radioactivity in the Jonas valley.


    TU Ilmenau Prof gives information about strahlungsbelastung in the Jonas Valley

    Category:
    Science & technology

    Tags:
    TU Ilmenau Paul Denner is are radiation

    I come from the vicinity of Arnstadt, I've seen that shows the detonation site of the "100 g" smallest atomic bomb aerial photo of the allies.(after detonation) just as there are published aerial photographs from 1944-45 the Raketenabschussrapen for the v3 show it. which was removed in 1945 up to the foundations.
    In addition there are it several contemporary witnesses statements die show the "alleged" test.
    There are also books on the subject containing the aerial photographs!

    label107 2 years ago 5
    ostensibly (according to wiki) is the residual radiation there vergefundene only from the deposits of worldwide nuclear testing or Chernobyl... Sure... why even admit what must not be that the evil German were technically equal or ahead the allies. Winners write the history and the truth is what is really abglaufen in the Jonas Valley, we are experienced guys never Otto – sorry

    Lusth0g 3 years ago 3
    All comments (11)
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    geo9190 1 year ago
    it is true you can compress a nicht critical mass pressure to a critical mass. The nuclear weapons of the type of fat-man did work according to this principle. But even explosives are not sufficient to push a mass of 100 g strongly enough together to form a critical mass.

    DrBPhD 1 year ago
    @ DrBPhD however, if the mass that is less than the critical mass, unter pressure. I've learned so at least at school and elsewhere also gelsen

    geo9190 1 year ago
    even with a "Kleinstwaffe" to build no hydrogen bomb. The pressure would be too low to set the Fussionsprozesse correctly in motion. And also for a Kleinstwaffe braucht you by the way, to a critical mass, and 100 g form no critical mass.

    DrBPhD 2 years ago
    @ DrBPhD German researchers gingen a completely different way! The Kleinstwaffen were intended as detonators for bombs.
    Panic major 2 years ago
    100 G form unblock user keine critical mass. Without critical mass no bomb.

    DrBPhD 2 years ago
    "Case of the studies the PTB but could carry out no measurements in the"little Tambuch", because this area even for the Bundeswehr is still off limits." "And where the test is to be made."
    Oha, restricted area for the BW? Should one conclude now what Hmmmmmmmm? Let's not shitting you people, the Government tells each of us eh crap only not the truth, is not only in the AMIS so!
    Wikipedia: Johnastal, Germany
    the final months of World War II was the secret location of a construction project Jonastal to the Nazis . Zehntausende Häftlinge des Konzentrationslagers Buchenwald trieben von November 1944 bis Anfang April 1945 im Jonastal im Rahmen des Sonderbauvorhabens " S III " unter strengster Geheimhaltung 25 Stollen in den Berg. Tens of thousands of prisoners of Buchenwald concentration camp, drove from November 1944 until early April 1945 in Jonastal under the special construction project " S III "under the strictest secrecy 25 tunnels into the mountain.
    Der Zweck dieses Bauvorhabens war der Öffentlichkeit lange Zeit unbekannt und bot Anlass für zahlreiche Spekulationen. The purpose of this construction project was unknown to the public for a long time and gave rise to many speculations. Durch neuere Quellenstudien [SUP][1][/SUP] sowie durch den im Jahr 2005 deklassifizerten Vernehmungsbericht des damaligen Leiters des zuständigen Planungsbüros, Dipl.-Ing. More recent studies of sources [SUP][1][/SUP] and by the interrogation report declassified in 2005, the then head of the relevant planning agencies, Dipl.-Ing. Karl Fiebinger [SUP][2][/SUP] , ist jedoch belegt, dass es sich um Bunkeranlagen handelte, die Adolf Hitler als (letztes) Führerhauptquartier hätten dienen sollen. Karl Fiebinger [SUP][2][/SUP] , but it is proven that these were bunkers that Adolf Hitler as (last) Hitler's headquarters would have to serve.
    Bereits in den Jahren 1936-38 war am Rande des Truppenlagers Ohrdruf eine verbunkerte Nachrichtenanlage mit den Tarnbezeichnungen " Amt 10 " bzw. " Olga " errichtet worden, die ursprünglich die Nachrichtenverbindungen für ein geplantes Ausweichquartier des Oberkommandos des Heeres bereitstellen sollte. [SUP][3][/SUP] Diese Anlage war vermutlich ebenso in die Gesamtplanungen für "S III" einbezogen [SUP][4][/SUP] wie Kasernengebäude des Truppenlagers Ohrdruf sowie weitere größere Bauten im weiteren Umfeld, zum Beispiel verschiedene Hotels zur Unterbringung von Stäben. [SUP][5][/SUP] Was already in the years 1936-38 at the edge of the troops camp Ohrdruf, a bunkered message attachment with the camouflaged " Office 10 "and" Olga built "was originally the communication links for a planned temporary quarters of the Army High Command should provide. [SUP][3][/SUP] This system was probably also in the overall planning for "S III" included [SUP][4][/SUP] as Ohrdruf camp barracks of the troops, and other major buildings in the wider community, for example, various hotels for the accommodation of staffs. [SUP][5][/SUP]
    SS-Obergruppenführer Hans Kammler hatte die Gesamtleitung für das Projekt "S III", den Auftrag hierzu erhielt er direkt [SUP][6][/SUP] vom Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler . SS Group leader Hans Kammler had the overall responsibility for the project "S III", he was awarded the contract for this project directly [SUP][6][/SUP] by the Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler .
    Im Zusammenhang mit den Bauarbeiten wurde das Außenlager "S III" des Konzentrationslagers Buchenwald errichtet. In connection with the construction work outside the camp "S III" of the Buchenwald concentration camp was built. Das Lager bestand in der Zeit vom 6. The camp was in the period from 6 November 1944 bis Anfang April 1945 (in der Zeit vom 14. November 1944 bis zum 15. Januar 1945 wurde es als selbständiges Konzentrationslager geführt und zählte in diesen acht Wochen nicht als Außenkommando). November 1944 to early April 1945 (in the period from 14 November 1944 to January 15, 1945 it was run as an independent concentration camp and counted in these eight weeks was not as external command). Zum Außenlager "S III" gehörten neben dem Nord- und Südlager bei Ohrdruf auch die weiteren Lager in der Luftmunitionsanstalt Crawinkel sowie das Zeltlager bei Espenfeld . For outdoor storage, "S III" belonged next to the north and south at Ohrdruf and other camps in the air ammunition depot Crawinkel and the tent camp near Espenfeld .

     
  16. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Dexter, you've fallen for some really interesting CTs here. I can point to one source, however. The boffins at Los Alamos used a 100 TON explosion to get a baseline for comparison purposes after the first atomic bomb was exploded.

    Also, the Japanese never detected either Enterprise or Lexington. Which was a good thing, because they were to far apart to support each other most of the time, and lightly escorted. It was Brown, Newton, Halsey and Kimmel who decided to leave the BBs behind when they went on these trips, because they didn't want to have to try and run away from any possible 'Orange' force with 20 knot battleships in train. They were concerned for the safety of those ships, which is why they were in port that day.
     
  17. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

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    It was Brown, Newton, Halsey and Kimmel who decided to leave the BBs behind when they went on these trips,

    Did they? That is, did the question even come up? There was no reason to include BBs in a simple ferry mission. All the carriers were tasked to do was steam to within flying distance of an island, launch planes, and come straight back to Pearl. Did anyone - admiral, staff officer, anyone at all - say "I wonder if we should send a few battleships with them?" Never mind training, maintenance, inspections, exchanging ammunition for the new heavy shells, everything that battleships and their crews normally do; just send them traipsing across the ocean out and back for six or ten days.

    Even when carriers and battleships did operate "together" it meant the carrier and screen operating in close proximity to the battle line and its screen of light cruisers and destroyers. Carriers needed to maneuver freely for flight operations, often at high speed. This probably also means the battleships would require a few additional destroyers for their own screen, particularly in the Lexington group which had only five DDs.

    With all that's been written and discussed about Pearl Harbor, surely there would be a specific record if someone had asked "Shall we send X number of battleships with Halsey or Brown?" and someone else had decided "No, we'll keep them in Pearl Harbor." Anyone?
     
  18. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The scene in "Tora, Tora, Tora" was fairly accurate:

    "Do we want to take the BBs along?"

    "Hell no! If we have to run we don't want to wait for them." (Paraphrased somewhat.)

    The forces sortied as usual, a "mixed arms" force of BBs, CVs, CAs, CLs, and DDs. This was intended to make any spy think this was a routine training exercise as long as possible. Then, instead of keeping the BBs at sea to maintain the illusion, Adm. Husband E. "Old Banker's Hours" Kimmel allowed them to return to port for the weekend. I have no doubt that if fast BBs had been available both force commanders would have welcomed them. First it's more punch. Second, there would be two or more ships that could refuel the 'cans.
     
  19. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Well Finaly something I can agree with without reservation! Can we put this at the beginning of the thread?
     
  20. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    The Luftwaffe refuelling possibility in St Pierre is pure fiction. Firstly they were among to first ones to join the Free French and never liked the Axis. Secondly : this territory was so close to Canada that neither Canada, nor the U.S. would have allowed the place to become a German base and would have occupied the Island . Thirdly how would the island supply the Luftwaffe with a few barils considering they could have been blocked , occupied or bombed at any time? Let us be realistic.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

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