Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theories' started by dexter livingstone, Jan 7, 2012.
We are way too far down the rabbit hole to be realistic anymore.
Not really. It tends to be used by those who can't prove their point considering all the evidence.
Your posting to date does not substantiate that position.
Not really. Indeed it would have been quite difficult, requiring a lot of luck on the part of the Japanese even if they new when Enterprise was coing in.
Please consider spending a month or two reading the material from the link at the bottom of Opana's post and come back when you have a decent understanding of what really happened.
I'll believe it when I see it but I don't expect to see it. You've been asked for sources by multiple people including admins and have yet to produce any.
There's a lot on it most indicating it's a myth.
??? whoose for what?
Who had one? The Germans or the Japanese? There is material on the disposition of both but nothing I've read indicates that they ended up in South America.
In addition to the site mentioned above try the Truman library. Or any of a number of well regarded books and internet sites.
NOthing I've seen indicates any need to.
Well since no one has produced anything to support it then it's a good bet it didn't happen, right? So why bring it up? Looks like the typical CT response. When the questions get to hard throw out a whole bunch of garbage to try and confuse the issue.
The site mentioned above has the Japanese intel decrypts including the reports on USN ship movements in and out of PH. There also infor that refutes your assumption about simlutaneous harbor time there as well.
What are you talking about? Do you mean during the war? Before the war? After the war? In some alternate dimension?
Not really. Again some basic research on the capablities of the German aircraft or US for that matter and the atomic bomb (if that's indeed what you are talking about) will show just how rediculous this is.
The V2 couldn't carry an atomic bomb of that period and there never was a V3. Although the best candidate for that title was a multichambered gun that was rather immobile.
How is it going to get into the harbor? You don't really know much about German subs of the period do you ... oh wait I didn't have to qualify that did I.
How about Hitler's allies from Rigel 4 just vaporize the city or the continent.
Certainly he displayed a significant amount of irrationality in some areas, this being one.
In all the discussions I've seen on this the CT'ers come up with their claims refuted and their evidence lacking. Produce some sources.
And this is relevan thow?
Certainly, rusted V2 components and support equipment.
Why? Note that the German enrichment plants were fairly well known.
PLS come back when you have at least a little idea what you are talking about.
The word is troll and you are.
Just a little reading into the background of the war in the Pacific would have indicated that they were in a serious bind. They had less than two years supply of oil and were cut off from all major suppliers at that point. That means in two years their army, navy, airforce(s), and industry were going to grind to a hault unless they did something. There were basically two things they could do to try and fix this:
1) Come to terms with China (which was culturally unacceptable and potentially fatal for those in charge)
2) Conquer a source of oil (The Dutch holdings in the South West Pacfic being the only ones in range)
They chose 2.
If you didn't want us to read it why did you post it?
Giberish that looks to be from another (unattributed) forum does not constitute a source.
I like to compare their post-war condition to their pre-war condition when considering their options prior to WWII. If the militarists hadn't taken over the country they could have been another "arsenal of democracy" and made a killing (pardon the pun) selling munitions and weapons of war to the Allies.
Just because I find this so amusing;
Ok. This appears to be a collection of comments posted in response to some article or posted on AboveTopSecret.com. The classic "Oh, it has to be true because my uncle's cousin's friend's dad's great granduncle was there and said this ____". I do thank you for saying "please do not read" -- I should have taken the advice.
"We" know quite a bit, you just don't seem to accept what "we" have said. And I don't think anyone here is "too scared" to contemplate; we accept the facts and don't try to make things as interesting or intriguing as you may like.
Actually, I'm fairly confident that you started this thread to present your own take on what happened and to convince all of us that value facts that we were wrong -- not to seperate fact from fiction.
Chilling, no. I guess you could say that it is chilling because it is backed up by the facts. And where did you come up with the whole "divine intervention" angle? For the record, "Divine Wind" is a Japanese term, refering to two typhoons that saved Japan from a Mongol invasion led by Kublai Khan. If there was a "divine wind" at work with the Enterprise, it would have pushed the ship into the path of the Japanese attack (not saved the carrier as you seem to imply).
Did you not say in your openning triade that the attack was a trap to catch the Japanese concocted by FDR et al? What about the pie they made? How would Roosevelt "not let this happen"? According to you, he set up the attack and thus the USN would gain the upper hand? So, how did the Nazis intend to attack the US? Hitler lost his two bombs on the way to NY, if you recall correctly.
Care to post them? Are you reffering to Ruegen Island? Radiation levels at the "test site" (and I use that term very loosely) are not above normal levels. How would the US have taken photos? Did they just hover around the site while the Germans set off the bomb? The Americans and British were kind enough to let Jerry continue on with his research, so of course they didn't target Ruegen with heavy bombers at any point during the war.
I don't know. Can you? According to every source I have read, the Japanese nuclear program was a shambles. IJA and IJN teams competed for resources, and didn't collaborate on their work. Dare I say that the closest the Japanese came to having a nuclear weapon was having two dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Googe is your friend -- go nuts. But none had the capacity to reach the US, as the other members have alluded to.
What about enrichment devices? Who is they? The Germans, the Japanese or the aliens from Roswell?
End the war? EVEN IF the Japanese or Germans had one, there was no way to have it delivered to the continental US.
We have. I recommend that you take a closer look. As everyone else here implied, Hitler was so nice he just used it once on the Soviets and never used it again even though the Soviets pillaged the country over the next 2 years.
You came up with this. We're waiting for you to provide the evidence.
Go it alone? How is two carriers too much to resist and avoid "going it alone". If anything, this wouldbe an incentive to do it without help. If the US lost two of three carriers at Pearl Harbour, it would be much easier to dominate the pacific.
Executive planes? Ah yes, the Germans planned on dropping their atomic bomb out the back door of a Learjet after stopping for a pint in Dublin. It makes perfect sense now!
What happened to the Learjet? Adolf perfered the PBY as a delivery deivce? Not to mention the fact that a PBY could not carry an atomic bomb because it was far too heavy. But hell, there's no place for facts here!
If the militarists hadn't taken over the country..... pretty much nails it. I don't even see what they were accomplishing in China, other than war for war's sake.
Do you know what the V3 was? You could not "launch" it.
Hitler? Dismissed as a mad man for having some strange obsession about attack New York? Who would say such a horrible thing?
And yes, the Germans had enough resources to lay an electrical cable across the atlantic undetected and hook up one of their u-boats to it. It would have cost them a good chunk of money, but I'm sure Home Depot would have had enough extension cords to make it possible. Did he pay for that in cash, or on a credit card?
I think someone has been sniffing yellowcake.
A castle? No! Really? Did Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton scale the cablecar to extract the names of all the German agents in England too?
Source? If true, I can think of many interesting things that might be found there. Unfortunately, I don't believe I'm thinking of the same things as you.
And after they made a bomb, they all could have joined Adolf, Hermann and Heinrich for a pie - with Toronto in the crust!
The Germans also looted the art museums and wine cellars. Did they have some special recipie for turning Mona Lisas and Bordeaux wine into atomic weapons, too?
Yes, the Norwegians are trolls. I'm sure our nordic members will appreicate that.
I hear they also produce good saunas.
Scientific? There is no place for science here! Science is based on "FACTS".
I don't know. I've been laughing all morning over this. Please -- I need something to keep me going through the afternoon.
It started out with the assumption that the Spirit of Yamato would make the war short. When this didn't happen they were faced with the problem of how to extract their forces without loss of face. This ego issue was insurmountable and they never did find a satisfactory way to leave, so they stayed. And kept killing people.
A big part of the problem is that the Marco Polo bridge incident wasn't the idea of the central government. It was basically the idea of some subordinate officers in China. The central governement wasn't willing to admit the lack of control they had or risk assassination (a not uncommon "remedy" applied by the more radical miltary officers) they would have had to in stopping it. The fact that things went well initially of course made it seem like it wasn't all that bad of idea as well.
Prange said it well, "The military formed foreign policy and the other ministries tried to work with what they were given."
Y'all carry on without Dexter. He has a few days to look for those sources that I asked for.
Excellent. I'll have to wait a bit longer than I anticipated for the next installment of his "evidence" list, but hopefully he'll return with something about Hitler's Antarctic lair in Lake Vostok and the German time machine.
As Takao mentioned, there is usually an admission fee charged for comedy like this.
Haven't I told you? After just few days this, otherwise pointless, thread attracts more attention than any other and is the most participated conversation over the past several months.
Put yer titters away, missus......
Looks like the "Cooler King" might have some competition
Dexter was trying to hard to appear clever and cryptic(failing miserably at both), and not hard enough at being clear and concise.
Perhaps, he will have learned this lesson when he returns...
... right on, in fact you're being TOO kind.
Best to not confuse the discussion with facts and rational thought at this point...
He's got a long row to hoe before he even comes close to reaching my level of insubordination.
Damn I missed all the fun yesterday. No wonder it's been cold here, the cooler door has been opened again.
The scene in "Tora, Tora, Tora" was fairly accurate:
"Do we want to take the BBs along?"
"Hell no! If we have to run we don't want to wait for them." (Paraphrased somewhat.)
Tora Tora Tora was a fine movie, but it also gave us Yamamoto's "sleeping giant" comment. Movie dialogue is not necessarily history. The question is still on the table: is there any actual historical reference to including battleships in Halsey's or Brown's ferry mission?
The forces sortied as usual, a "mixed arms" force of BBs, CVs, CAs, CLs, and DDs. This was intended to make any spy think this was a routine training exercise as long as possible. Then, instead of keeping the BBs at sea to maintain the illusion, Adm. Husband E. "Old Banker's Hours" Kimmel allowed them to return to port for the weekend.
Any historical basis for this? Something like "BatDiv 1 accompanied Halsey to sea but returned to port a few days later"?
return to port for the weekend seems particularly poorly phrased since both Halsey (Nov 28) and Brown (Dec 5) sortied on Fridays. The deceptive "sortie as usual" would have been brief indeed!