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The myths of WWII (Eastern Europe)

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe' started by LJAd, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    They didn't want even bother entering Moscow - they simply wanted to erradicate it. On October 12 Bock received an order:

    "The Führer has reaffirmed his decision that the surrender of Moscow will not be accepted, even if it is offered by the enemy."

    The Germans have expected that Moscow would fall without resistance; it was expected that bombing would have been enough to finish the job. Halder wrote in his diary:

    "It is the Führer's unshakable decision to raze Moscow and Leningrad to the ground, so as to be completely relieved of the population of these cities, which we would otherwise have to feed through the winter. The task of destroying the cities is to be carried out by aircraft."
     
  2. Nordwind511

    Nordwind511 Member

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    I disagree, cause the Germans had already break through the first inner lines of the defence of Leningrad when the assault was stopped by withdraw the 1. Armored division - this was not a result of the defenders of Leningrad at this moment.
     
  3. Nordwind511

    Nordwind511 Member

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    Your interpretation isn´t correct, sorry. The Germans didn´t expected that bombing would have been enough to finish the job. Halder´s words means that the city shouldn´t be destroyed by ground troups (especially engineer-units)cause this would probably cause losses Halder would like to avoid (remember what happened at Kiew) any more losses
     
  4. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    But by accepting surrender of the city he would have saved even more lives on the both sides! The truth is, however, that the objective of Operation Typhoon was to savagely erradicate Moscow along with the complete civil population at the same time.
     
  5. Nordwind511

    Nordwind511 Member

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    I agree that to accept surrender of Leningrad would have saved even more lives on both sides. And the decision of stopping the assault on Leningrad was absolutely stupid-in military sense. I never read about an order of Hitler for Operation Tyhon to savagely erradicate Moscow ... do you have any sources for this statement? Please also tell me the exact date of Halder´s statement in his diary ...
     
  6. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    1. Please read my post #641.
    2. I am talking about the battle for Moscow and Nazi intention to encircle, bomb and destroy the city along with all inhabitants: men, women, elderly, children, babies. All, with no exception.
     
  7. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Well, I'm not really fond of conversations where I'm asked to prove the obvious but I will do an exception now and I am appending a PDF file with p. 212 from the Journal of Franz Halder Vol. VI just to show you a document that reveals Hitler's plan.

    The objectives of Operation Typhoon were known at least to Bock, Kesselring and Guderian if not to other Nazi officers too. They knew that they would have to "relieve the Reich from the necessity of having to feed the populations ... without using tanks for that purpose." They intended to encircle the city, to prevent evacuation, to deny the right for surrender and bomb the city or wait that starvation does the job. Isn't that savage enough for you?

    In one of my previous posts I have used the word savage because the Nazis deserve no other attribute than that; they were the worst turd that ever existed since the creation. Is it possible to defend manure by insisting on precise dates and proper quoting of their diaries? The Earth isn't a cube too, believe me.

    Are you aware that Hitler and his henchmen was the worst that has ever happened to Germans? They have destroyed Germany and gave good ground for ethnical cleansing of Germans at the East and across the Central Europe. Today’s German ethnic border goes along rivers Oder and Neisse and then along Czech, Slovak, Hungarian and Slovenian borders. Regretfully, ethnic Germans practically do not exist at the eastern side of that border. Don't blame us – Nazis did that to Germany. Today’s Germany is what Otto the Great has achieved 1.000 years ago. The Nazis are those who reverted all territorial gains Germans have made over the past millennium. Think.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Nordwind511

    Nordwind511 Member

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    I agree with you about the Nazis completely - no doubt. That the ethnic borders goes along rivers Oder and Neisse and then along Czech, Slovak and Slovenian borders is a part of the results of this terrible war. And the Germans have to accept this and they accept it. Probably you miss my intentions or my attitudes. I read about the plans about Leningrad and naturally I know that the Germans planned to encircle Moskow - but I didn´t read that Hitler planned the same to do with Moskow than he planned for Leningrad. Can you tell me the date of your copy from the journal of Halder (which day? - I have this book too, so I could read it in the german version as well ...
     
  9. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    It is from 8 July 1941 at 12:30: Report to the Fuehrer (at his Hq.)
     
  10. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Hello Norwind511,

    IMO, Hitler did not halt Army Group North. Von Leeb simply could not break through... Only after storming the city, followed by trying to shell it into submission fail did Hitler give the order to starve it into submission.

    The Red Army forces disruped Hitler's plan to seize Leningrad by concentric blows from south and north. Combat intensified steadily as the Germans approached ever closer. As a result, the tempo of the German advance decreased from a rate of advance of 3 miles per day in July to 1.3 miles per day in August and less than a mile per day in September. Only after the Red Army halted the German advance at Leningrad's doorstep and frustrated their attemps to capture the city did a German directive issued on 22 September read:

    The Fuher has decided to erase the city of Petersburg from the face of the earth. I have no interest in the further existence of this large city after the defeat of Soviet Russia... We propose to blockade the city tightly and erase it from earth by means of artillery fire

    Only after Leningrad continued to resist, was the order given to simply let the city die out...

    -Glantz
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Reading about the siege I found this interesting quote ( Perhaps it´s true ):

    "During the siege there was a saying among the troops in Leningrad: Which Army does not fight the war? Swedish, Turkish, and th 23rd Soviet - it rhymes nicely in Russian, and describes the general condition at the Isthmus during the static war. "

    Axis History Forum • Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad
     
  12. Nordwind511

    Nordwind511 Member

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    Hello Sloniksp -

    which sources do you use for this statement? I guess you use Glantz, right? I know some books of Glantz too - I know that he used material from russian archives for his books. Some of his books are really good - but I guess it´s necessary to analyse sources of both sides. Then we would get more informations for a realistic assessment ... After the "withdraw" of for example Armored Division 1 and 36 Infantrydivision (mot.) naturally the Armygroup NORD losses very important forces for a further attack on Leningrad ...
    Some questions about the statement that "Leeb couldn´tbreak through" - Which date do you mean? If you´re talking about the time october and later - you´re right.

    When I said that the Germans already break through - break through the inner defence-lines of Leningrad, I am talking about early september ... before the Armygroup North have to leave important units for an assault. For example on 7 September 1941, the 36. infantrydivision (mot.) broke through the fortifications at Leningrad and then stormed Duderhof that Duderhof Hills and Nikolaevka. I guess you know the meaning of the Dudenhoffer Hills for the defence of Leningrad ...
     
  13. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    No, this isn't that simple. You cannot say: "Let's now hear the opposite side and the truth is somewhere in between."

    To see the truth, you first must eliminate lies and there are far too many outright lies in books of "reliable" authors like Beevor. Many of his lies were adopted and reiterated by other authors. Next, stereotypes and prejudices created during the Cold War is another huge obstacle to conceive the truth. Memoirs of Nazi generals are another huge source of falsified history.

    To doubt Glanz isn't serious, modestly speaking.

    And finally, the truth about the Eastern front is so horrible that I often refrain from further reading: mass murders of Jews, starving and freezing the Soviet POWS to death, atrocities in concentration camps, separating children from mothers before forcing them into mass graves… And yet, far too many perpetrators have escaped with it to write their own version of history.

    But, if you need a rosy picture of the WW2, you're free to read and believe whatever you want.
     
  14. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    I agree that the truth about the Eastern front is often horrible. Over 40 % of the Finnish POW's were starved to death on soviet hands despite of the quite short, half a year average prison time mainly in 1944. Almost all of the earlier POW's died.

    The celebrated and decorated soviet partisans concentrated on attacks against remote and defenceless small Finnish civilian villages killing and raping women, babies and elderly. Back home they reported of "great victories" against "military garrisons", were they claimed to have killed "vast numbers" of "Finnish and German officers and soldiers".
     
  15. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I don't know much about guerilla actions in Kareliya but I know lot about our partisans. All of those I know are honourable and honest people who resisted Nazis. They were the first who have opposed Nazis in the entire Europe. They fought for the right causes against merciless enemy.

    Please, don't blame partisans because they are the victims too. Many of them have lost entire families or escaped death. They had no other choice except to live in forests, starved in cold and wet, deprived from the right for normal life. Sometimes even good people feel the need for revenge. Uncommon injustice may cause enormous rage. But real perpetrators were the Nazi aggressors who have suspended the laws wherever they came.

    Have you ever thought that Nazis are those who have made injustice to your countrymen who died from partisans' hand?
     
  16. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Kiev is in Ukraine and some Ukrainians welcomed the Germans as liberarators. It didn't didn't take them long to wake up and switch from an independence dream to a Nazi hell. This was also exaxagerated by German propaganda, but the state of mind in Kiev was certainly different than Stalingrad which was a symbol for Stalin.
     
  17. Nordwind511

    Nordwind511 Member

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    I don´t need a rosy picture of the WW2 - especially of Eastern Front. I lost my grandpa and 3 of my uncles during WW2, the family of my mother lost their home, I heard about death, rapes etc. so don´t tell me about a rosy picture of WW2.

    I agree with you that is necessary if you want to see the truth, you first have to eliminate lies and there are far too many outright lies in books ... that´s one reason I try to read original sources like documents from NARA.

    My comment only intend to understand the importance of reading documents about the same subject "from both sides", although you have to consider the time when the source is written, the behavior of the author etc. etc. And I am sure you agree with me that it´s hard to find the truth after nearly 70 years in person. And to eliminate lies isn´t that easy too ... So we shouldn´t stay here and assert that we know what happened exactly and that we are able to eliminate lies. In my opinion it´s too difficult to declare subjects to "myth" of WW2 or not ... because it depends sometimes on the point of view on a special subject.
    On my research of what happened to my grandpa (he is missing in action till january 45 during the tank battle at Hatten-Rittershoffen - he served in the 21th Armored division) I talked to one of the veterans (Werner Kortenhaus - author of a book about the history of 21st Armored Division) of 21. Armored Divison - and these guys are now 80 years now, but still remember lots of details what happened you will probably never read in a book. He said to me that the world has probably other important things to care about -much more important than what happened in WW2.
    But the research about my grandpa was/is very important to me -- cause the only the subject which is left about my grandpa is one single picture. That´s all ... There are no informations about him, because my grandma died in 1947 when my mother was 7 yrs. old.. Today my grandpa has an identity for myself, cause I know his way through the terrible time of war (Operation "Yellow", Crimena and Sewastopol, Leningrad, Eastern front late 1943 near Kiew and than 1945 L´Elsasse) - although I still don´t know where his way last. The whole search and all I had to do to find his way was worth it. But I will never be fascinated about this part of history, because war is always a story about blood, dirt and mud, death and terrible suffering ...
     
  18. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Please Tamino , consider this when you say the "first".

    Karl Hotz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Recherche_auteurs_attentat_Hotz_1941.JPG
     
  19. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    People weren't so naive to believe the Nazi propaganda. Here is a German newsreel about the occupation of my city Maribor (Ger. Marburg an der Drau). Even the Nazi newsreel addmitts that aggressors were welcomed just by Volksdeutsche. All others knew who's comming.
    [video=youtube;Or8OvcTAqak]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or8OvcTAqak[/video]
     
  20. Nordwind511

    Nordwind511 Member

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    Hello Tamino -
    what do you call honourable and honest people?Give me an idea what you are talking about?
     

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