Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

The Waffen SS threads...

Discussion in 'Counter-Battery Fire' started by Friedrich, Apr 22, 2009.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    93
    Nice post Timo...Thats pretty much how I've always read it and couldn't put it anywhere near better :)

    I suspect Herr Goebbels is still chuckling to himself in hell over all the spin.

    Cheers
     
  2. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,984
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    No offense Friedrich , it's just that you posted your thread at the worst time with an agressive attitude, when several similar threads about the SS were going bananas. I'm aware that you never meant to attract trolls and am glad to read that you did not aim me personnally, though I was the one who moderated those threads at the time. Had you opened this thread at another time , it would probably not have encountered some pointless comments and not been closed. I'm glad you take it that way and appreciate being able to have an intelligent discussion with you to settle this matter. :)
     
  3. razin

    razin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    83
    The point I was trying to make in one of the dumped thread, was that Several "elite sSSPz Ab 501 502 503 received 150 Tiger 2 not including replacement and unofficial transfers, whereas in my opinion Herr batalions (510 is an example I think got 5 and 502 got 8) were somewhat starved of these types and being professional unit could have made a better fist of them. I am sure the use of Panther is similar.

    There is also the matter that SS considered themselves better informed than the German ordnance department with regard to some so called second line weapons that they prefered (example the Zk383 and Knorr Bremse 35) but as I mentioned before over rode the ordnance to invest in 8cm R-Vielfachwerfer at God knows what price when there were perfectly serviceable WF weapons available.

    With regard to being a Waffen SS fan, nothing could be further from the truth (for me that is like a turkey voting for Xmas), I would be totally happy if members would debate Ww2 stuff disapassionately especially the constant S*** that German stuff was so superior. however I don't think closing debate half way through is the answer, although I have to be aware that other influences are at play and if the forum is swamped by trolls or whatever then I have to accept it for the good of the site.

    Steve
     
  4. DocCasualty

    DocCasualty Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2008
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    My simplistic understanding of the Waffen SS was Hitler's attempted political control of at least some portion of the military. Those who were strictly devoted to him and Party ideals vs. Heer, who obviously answered to him but whose hearts and minds were possibly/likely elsewhere.

    My question is, was this development and employment of the W-SS ultimately counter-productive to the German war effort? Based on Timo's post above, intuitively it would seem that they would have been better off if these same men had just come up through the Heer ranks, eliminating unnecessary duplications, providing improved training, undoubtedly better battle coordination, etc.

    I understand that I am asking this question looking back over what ultimately happened and not what Hitler planned to happen, but it seems this might be another case where the "little corporal" shot himself in the foot.
     
  5. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Messages:
    25,883
    Likes Received:
    857
    NOt that im agreeing wih what many members in the Waffen SS did, the only thing I have for them is that I knew and were friends with a few Waffen SS RKTs-as is well-known that for many years, I was great friends with Remy Schrijnen-untill he passed away.

    That aside-Remy Schrijnen WAS a very honorable soldier serving in SS Sturmbrigade Langemarck. Remy never committed any crimes and served very honoralbly as a volunteer. Remy's bravery is well beyond any doubt.

    That said, for those who served honorably-I salute them. To those who were like Mohnke-and gutter trash like him-I hope they all rot in whatever hell they reside in.

    The only defense I can make or these men-is that not all of them were gutter trash. A few others I knew/know that come to mind are Josef "Sepp" Lainer, Ernst Barkmann, Heinrich Springer and Rudolph von Ribbentrop. The only Waffen SS General I was ever in contact with-which was a positive set of experiances-was Otto Kumm. Oh and I was in touch with at one time-Michael Wittmanns Wife if that means anyhting?

    I do not defend their actions-but the men mentioned above did serve with honor and not a one of these mentioned ever committed any war crimes even if a few of the units they were in-did do so.

    Best regards-C.

    Edited to correct a first-name error.
     
    wtid45 likes this.
  6. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,683
    Likes Received:
    955
    I dont know much about the waffen SS so am open to getting it wrong...but are we talking of Ribbentrop the politician here Carl? If so the same guy who is quoted in many works, as stating, even with all I know now, if Hitler was to come to me here now (Nuremberg) I would still do as he asked??

    If same guy doesnt sound like anything but gutter trash to me...the optimum words being all that I now know. If I'm wrong please correct me.
     
  7. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,984
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    Von Ribbentrop was a Sekt dealer, that's how he was called by those who had not forgotten that before entering politics he was selling wines. :D
     
  8. wtid45

    wtid45 Ace

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    99
    Carl is refering to Rudolf von Ribbontrop, Haupsturmfuher in 12 HJ at the close of the war he was the son of Joachim von Ribbontrop, and while your description perfectly suits his father I would agree with Carl on his son.
     
  9. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,683
    Likes Received:
    955
    So I'm wrong then...see it happens...Sorry.
     
  10. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,683
    Likes Received:
    955
    It did cross my mind how Carl would know someone who had been executed at Nuremberg...but I sort of thought Carl is about 150 years old anyway.
     
  11. wtid45

    wtid45 Ace

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    99
    I read the sorry part scrolled down and cracked up:D as im sure Carl will and sorry for what, no need in my book.
     
  12. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    14,265
    Likes Received:
    2,586
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    What, you mean Carl ISN'T 150 years old? I thought he went to school with Stonewall Jackson.

    On topic, though, Timo's post seems to hit some excellent points. I would like to see some confirmation of his ideas, though, since I really know very little about the Waffen-SS. Where did the data come from? Can you direct me to some sources for your comments?

    Thanks.
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    93
    May I recommend ATB's Panzers in Normandy and Ruckmarsh for starters :)

    Cheers
     
  14. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,048
    Likes Received:
    267
    I think this thread is moving towards another SS Brawl. lol
     
  15. razin

    razin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    83
    I think the the thread has been a gentlemanly exchange of views and information

    ~Steve
     
    wtid45 likes this.
  16. razin

    razin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    83
  17. wtid45

    wtid45 Ace

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    99
    You hit the nail Steve, reps given. I think this has been one of the better threads in relation to The SS and while I understand the need to avoid the Nazi trolls being drawn into the thread like moths to a flame. (see what I did there;))I have read many accounts and books about SS troops commiting atrocities, what I really want to read about are soldiers regardless of nationality perfoming bravely and hounourably and no I dont care if ther uniform looks COOL:rolleyes: and every time I have bought a book about a SS individual or unit this is what i want to read so if a thread is started about the SS THEN LETS DISCUSS THOSE WITH MERIT LIKE THOSE SUGGGESTED BY CARL.
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    93
    I've been watching this documentary:
    ::: The History Channel - SS :::

    It's very telling especially the interviews with the Waffen SS veterans.

    I've yet to here a good word said about them by the veterans who faced them or the Wehrmact who served with them.

    Anyone in the UK with Sky I'd strongly recommend you watch this-One of the better documentaries on the Military Channel

    Regards
     
  19. BWilson

    BWilson Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    337
    Likes Received:
    60
    Timo, an excellent post. I only wish to add the myth is not only a product of exaggerated talk by veterans. It was also strongly furthered by postwar propaganda that deliberately minimized the blemishes you mentioned and ignored similar or better performances by Heer units. This propaganda has enjoyed considerable success which is why we so often see SS-fanboy material instead of sober looks at the whole of the Waffen-SS.

    Cheers

    BW

    >So where did this myth come from? It's clear that wartime German media profiled the Waffen-SS as the elite at the cost of the Heer. All to often the press gave the Waffen-SS credit for Heeres achievements. Simply because in Nazi propaganda the Waffen-SS had to be the elite. SS veterans, allied veterans and post war authors happily parroted this myth and due to the internet it is by now almost impossible to look at the facts without SS groupies diluting the discussion with fairytales. (Timo)
     
  20. BWilson

    BWilson Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    337
    Likes Received:
    60
    Hi C. Evans,

    While not doubting your impressions of Mr. Schrijnen, I have to point out that in the eyes of many Belgians he was simply a traitor who opted to serve in the armed forces of an enemy who had invaded their homeland. For taking that course of action, he was seen as considerably less than honorable, no matter how he may have deported himself as a soldier in the service of the Germans.

    I hope you understand my POV with this reply. I realize that people hold different views regarding the foreign volunteers of the SS (and particularly in your case because you knew Mr. Schrijnen personally), but for me the memory of my grandfather's over 20 years of service as a Belgian soldier (including four years as a German POW) compels me to express the point of view of many Belgians regarding the Flemish and Walloon SS volunteers.

    Cheers

    BW

    >That aside-Remy Schrijnen WAS a very honorable soldier serving in SS Sturmbrigade Langemarck. Remy never committed any crimes and served very honoralbly as a volunteer. Remy's bravery is well beyond any doubt.
     
    urqh likes this.

Share This Page