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the worlds most prolific slave raiders ?

Discussion in 'Non-World War 2 History' started by majorwoody10, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    virtually every culture and country has at one time or another used ,bought or sold slaves .slavery is at least as old as city building and perhaps long before .were it not for the efforts of wilberforce and the judeo christian west ,slavery would be alive and well in africa ,the middle east and asia . slavery is the norm of human history and the present period is tiny exception .hundreds of millions have died as overworked beasts of burden .attractive women and children would be used as slaves for "indoor purposes "

    what power historically was the best at catching slaves for fun and profit , who caught the most slaves and who did it for the longest time ? was it the eygptians , spartans ,romans ,vikeings ,nazis ,stalin .missisippi cotton planters , someone else ?
     
  2. TISO

    TISO New Member

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    I would say Angolan and Mozamique kingdoms in Africa. They were the source for most of America's ( north, south and central) and Arabian slaves ( Arabs were mostly traders-to costly and dangerous to do it themselves). Basily they overcathed and collapsed. As consequence Portugal had to step in and take over Angola and Mozambique as colony which was costly for them. For them it was also more conveniant to have a few coastal cities where they would trade for slaves as at the time Angola and Mozabique had nothing else they would desire.

    Also Romans which based their entire economy on the slaves. Some of their wars were started mainly for this (expansion to northeast of Noricum and into Dacia (Romania)).
     
  3. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    being raised in the usa i always thought of the slave trade to be mostly european and much about dixie .actually the americas slave trade only lasted about three hundred years and of the slaves shipped to the americas only about 6 % arrived in what was later called the united states .

    arab slavers and their black muslim converts have been raiding in black africa for almost 1400 years and to some extent are still active in slave hunting even today .the islamic african country of mauritiana just officially outlawed slavery in 07 and i dont mean 1907.

    the arabic word ab , abi , is used to describe the the negro race and also it means slave , thus in arabic negro and slave are one word . the common name ABDULLA means the slave of allah .

    black slaves bound for islamic markets were shipped out via the indian ocean ,red sea and over several trails through the sahara . while the death rates on the infamous ships bound for the americas were sometimes ten percent , the mortality rates of arab slave trains was often 80 % or more . this we have from their own records ,letters and eye witness accounts .

    in the 1800s alone , it is shown that some two million african slaves ARRIVED in muslim markets , the wastege you can extrapolate .some historians are figureing as high as 130 million ah ...displaced blacks , over the centurys of arab domination in large swaths of africa .


    arabs historicaly, of course , felt and expressed no remorse whatsoever about slavery because takeing kaffirs and infidels as slaves is clearly endorsed and even advised in the scriptures .these texts are taken quite seriously by muslims , even today .

    muslim armys started whuppin ass in ad 800 and whupped butt , decade after decade , all the way to poland ,vienna and into france and eastward to the phillipenes .you can figure that if the armys of the orient and of europe were so often crushed , the black levees of spear throwing animist kaffir " abi " were of little trouble ...ok , no trouble .muslim armys were needed in europe and india but small muslim detachments would suffice to catch abi .
    and africa is right in arabia's back yard . easy pickings and close at hand ..where it was practical, arab slavers used trade goods of copper ,iron ,glass ,textiles and firearms to trade with a local kaffir kings and strongman for slaves from the interiour ,this is of course still the muslim arab slave trade whomever the origimnal procurement agent might be ...

    given a milliniem or so of active slaveing in africa ,in southern and eastern europe .asia and india (btw , india alone may outstrip africa in volume ) given the range ,scope and duration of islamic slave raiding , i dont think rome , old persia or any other imperial power comes even remotely close to the numbers collected to date by the muslims . they continue to add to their score as we speak ,they have slowed way down but are still doing business .
     
  4. smeghead phpbb3

    smeghead phpbb3 New Member

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    I wouldn't be suprised if it was the Mongolians, the largest numbers in their armies were slaves taken from the countless ethnic groups conquered by Genghis Subotai and Tamerlane... Towards the end of the century the Golden Horde had become comprised almost exclusively of Turkic peoples from the steppes, descendants of those conquered by the fathers and gradfathers of Mongolia, and by default servants to pure Mongolians... Their families? slaves. Their kings? vassals. one way or another, every man woman or child who was in the dominion of the Horde was considered a slave, and treated the same, though only some were taken away for a more traditional gulag-esque experience in central asia... The Chinese particularily, because Mongolia had long been eager to make examples of them. The mandate of the Golden Horde was very simple. Make the enemy join, submit, or die. the pyramids of human skulls lying outside the gates of Ryazan and Baghdad helped make up the minds of the indecisive.

    Suprisingly, the Mongol Khanates are often actually praised for treating their slaves quite well, and for being quite devoid of racial and religious discrimination. They even encouraged the education of women, something not so popular in some of the more arid camel-populated provinces of the empire... Jews, Muslims and Christians lived in harmony in subordination to their Mongols rulers, a simple tribute was all they asked to live in this Mongolian utopita...

    And what if you didn't agree to this reasonably priced blessing? Simple, you got exterminated... Even today the massacre unleashed by the mongols is unsurpassed... The Chinese were culled to one half, the Persians one tenth... 63 million perished across the world, thats about one in every 5 people killed by Genghis and his cronies... But hey! At least he didn't mistreat his slaves right? Once the place has been cleansed of resistance, the Mongolian society itself was great! Quite sophisticated, just and liberal really... Unfortunately, the mongols eventually met their waterloo, and all hopes of civilisation attaining true enlightenment were destroyed. Defeated in Poland, in Japan, and then in Syria at the hands of slaves to another master...
     
  5. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    iirc , genghis khan and his merrry men were not real big on slave takeing , except for nomadic horse archers beaten and then conscripted into his army ,genghis had little use for anyone .farmers ,townspeople merchants ,artisens ,tradesmen ,preists ,fishermen ,and all of their women and children were reduced to bleached bones and burnt hamlets to make room for the mongols herds of horses ,goats ,sheep and cattle .

    tamerlane though technically a mongol vassel , was a turkoman muslim and all of his wars of conquest were waged on fellow muslims , though he did indeed take many slaves , i dont count his numbers when speaking of jihad driven slavery .

    remember the arab muslims have been slaveing in africa from nearly day one ( and still sorta are ) .in europe , christians under muslim control in the balkans , ukraine and greece , if they couldnt pay the dhimini tax , were obliged to deliver a fair daughter or strong son into a life of slavery .girls as sex toys or house servants , boys to be trained as slave soldiers called janissaries . these perminant bachelor regiments were so well indoctrinated and brainwashed , that they were often the most brutal and rapacious troops in the muslim army when they were later unleashed on their own former kin and country . blue and green eyed white skinned muslim waffen ss , if you will.

    the jihadist slavetakeing in india was according to some scholars , even worse than that in africa and europe combined .mongols and the huns before them were herdsmen more intrested in makeing skeletons rather than catching slaves , you dont need slaves for setting up tents and minding goats ,women , old mongols and boys can do that kinda stuff . the pharoes , greeks , romans and vikeings were all big slavers , but all of them together cant match the muslims if we only count hindu slaves ...

    the jihad driven slavers of islam are without a doubt , the greatest and the most vicious slave takers in all of history . and given the well documernted high wastage of slaves in transit , the greatest killers too .the huns and mongols were awesome killing machines in their day but given their relatively short time span in action , strictly bush league when compared to the numbers of bleached human skeletons produced by islamic jihadists .

    hitler ,stalin and pol pot racked up some big numbers in the last century but the mohmeens have been at it for almost 1400 years and the clock is still running for the followers of "mohamid the most kind , just and merciful ".

    p.s. muslim genocides against other muslims .ie . tamerlane and the late iran iraq war dont count , im counting only jihadist wars of subjigation waged on abi ,infidels and unbelevers here . just so as not to muddy the waters ...
     
  6. smeghead phpbb3

    smeghead phpbb3 New Member

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    No, in terms of actual lives lost in the process of slave trading the the Arab Slave trade took a paltry second place to trans-Atlantic...

    Once again, I am referring to the infamous Atlas of Death which for those of you who don't know, neatly tallies the estimates of educated historians...

    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatv.htm

    19 million poor sould have died in the Arab Slave trade since the 7th Century...

    Whereas 20 million (with estimates as high as 80 million) have died as a result of the trans-atlantic slave trade between the 15th - 19th century

    Most of those were captured with the accord and aid of local Africans, and not actually by European slave traders... But the 'consumers' were undoubtedly us enlightened Europeans... We also did not complain heavily back then. Times were different and slavery was the norm... Arab slavery continues in the Sudan, just as sexual slavery exists in Eastern Europe and China; the European slave industry is still running too. Oh how times have changed.

    I could also get into how the slaves of the Muslims (the Jannissaries for instance) often attained a high, respected social status.
    The highest status an American slave could hope for was the top branch :angry:
     
  7. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    .

    also the germanic wars against the eastern devil worshipers , the first contact is expressed in their name , slaves
    there was a lot of raiding and every year at Marienburg the Teutonic knights would organize raids of volunteers knights from all over Europe to hunt down slaves in the frozen marshes ,
    the pagans would be Christianized and sold as slaves back in town , it was quite a swell occasion in the social calendar and could be very lucrative
    it stopped when the Teutonics hit on descendants of the Swedish vikings slave traders founders of the Rurick dynasty in Kiev four century before
    the defeat of the knights on the ice of lake peius at the hands of alexander Nevsky stopped that line of business

    .
     
  8. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    also the germanic wars against the eastern devil worshipers , the first contact is expressed in their name , slaves
    there was a lot of raiding and every year at Marienburg the Teutonic knights would organize raids of volunteers knights from all over Europe to hunt down slaves in the frozen marshes ,
    the pagans would be Christianized and sold as slaves back in town , it was quite a swell occasion in the social calendar and could be very lucrative
    it stopped when the Teutonics hit on descendants of the Swedish vikings slave traders founders of the Rurick dynasty in Kiev four century before
    the defeat of the knights on the ice of lake peius at the hands of alexander Nevsky stopped that line of business

    .
     
  9. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    Also the germanic wars against the eastern devil worshipers , the first contact is expressed in their name , slaves
    there was a lot of raiding and every year at Marienburg the Teutonic knights would organize raids of volunteers knights from all over Europe to hunt down slaves in the frozen marshes ,
    the pagans would be Christianized and sold as slaves back in town , it was quite a swell occasion in the social calendar and could be very lucrative
    it stopped when the Teutonics hit on descendants of the Swedish vikings slave traders founders of the Rurick dynasty in Kiev four century before
    the defeat of the knights on the ice of lake peius at the hands of alexander Nevsky stopped that line of business

    .
     
  10. TISO

    TISO New Member

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    Woody i find your deliberate misleading appaling. You are constantly evoking muslims and Jihadist's slavery. If you are speaking of Ottoman (Turkish) empire be specific as well you are talking about Arabs. Those are two completly different things. With such generalisationas you could also term late Roman era, Bysantium era, late Viking era, trans atlantic era and also Dixie slavery as CHRISTIAN SLAVERY. Those nasty christians were abducting slaves from all over the world and many perished as beasts of buden or sex toys. Now who was doing it longer and on more massive scale?
    I understand you have a biased point to sell ( oh those nasty muslim jihadists who will nuke us poor christians), but you realy should educate youself thoroughly on the subject before you write such tripe and not just partialy as you inevitably always seem to do. And slavery was never about religion and/or jihad but about money and profits.

    BTW
    You should also check about practices of war in the era ( late antiquty, midlle ages and reinecansse) Europe and you will see that such appaling practices you are ascribing to the "nasty" muslims were extremly widespread. Yes we were very humane in 30 years war and all other wars since roman empire (you know christian against christian). And don't give me that tripe about nasty muslims invading europe as we were directly affected by that as we were the last line of defence before alps. We kicked Ottoman arse at Sisak (styrian heavy infantry and arqubusires under Auersperg) and under empress Maria Theresia of the Holly Roman empire kicked their arse so hard that they never recovered.

    About your statistic which you used to show how humane were the christian slave traders.
    100% losses of "cargo" on slave ships were not uncommon when Royal navy started enforcing anti-slave rules and inspecting the ships. It was economicaly more prudent to drop all slaves overbord with chains attached (corpus delicti sunk quicker) than getting your ship confiscated. Also your statistic does not account for slaves lost en route to slave markets of Africa ( losses similar to those of arab slave traders) where they were bought and loaded on christian ships.

    And yes American (US) slavery was lasting for only 300 years that is since first brits landed in the colonies. :grin:
     
  11. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    islam and slavery are very much connected ,mohamid was among other things , a slave raider .islamic texts are full of exortations to slay the infidel and take his women and children as slaves .the prophet himself beheaded scores of jewish men who had surrendered and then raped some of the wives and daughters of those same men that very day .this was perfectly ok as these women were mohameds personal property as rightful spoils of war .islam does not denie this , hide it , nor apologise for it .the koran allows four wives but there is no limet on slave girls .in fact , in the afterlife every warrior gets 72 virgin girls and 28 smooth faced boys , farm animal numbers are not specified .

    wether the muslims are arabs ,turks ,persians or afgans ,all of them have killed ,crushed ,raped and inslaved their infidel neighbors IN THE NAME OF ISLAM . females and children are dispersed to the victorieous gahzis as war booty ,one fifth being set aside for the church .part of that fith as alms for the muslim poor .

    a leading saudi cleric ,sharif salah a fawzar recently said "slavery is part of islam " and "slavery is part of jihad and slavery will remain as long as there is jihad "

    to my knowlege , jesus never killed anyone or raped any slave girls ,he did not order any assasinations . he did not ask others to kill for god .jesus owned no slaves and often called for their emancipation . christians have sometimes done all of these things , but ...now pay attention , NOT BY FIAT . christians did this stuff without a mandate from jesus , muslims do these things because of the example and copious instructions from mohamed . this is kind of an important distinction .all messias are NOT created equal . im not a christian , i have no personal ax to grinde in this debate , but i can read .

    wilberforce and his christian supporters ended slavery in the british colonies and then , as pointed out by tiso , set the royal navy to stopping all slave ships on the high seas , slavers , like modern drug runners sometimes dumped their valuble cargo over the side to avoid prosecution .tiso would implie that this is somehow the fault of the royal navy or christianity

    the muslim world only gave up slavery in the face of french and british pressure , there was never ever in muslim thought , correspondence or doctrine even the slightest hint of abolishinism or moral soul searching in regards to jihad war and the booty of treasure and slaves .jihad is a mandate ,treasure and tender young females are the rightful and imediate payoff .or preteen boys ,whatever floats your stick ,

    islam was lead kicking and screaming down this path of abolition by the evil white man colonial powers . saudi arabia and yemen only legally abolished slavery in 1962 ,mauritiana did so last year .sharia law and islamic jurisprudence is packed full of rules and codes about the treatment of slaves and though almost all peoples have used slaves at one point or another , in islam it is very much institutionalized .btw , the koran allows a muslim to rape any slave of his unless she is married .but if she is married to an infidel , it doesnt count .

    christians did of course, practice and abiet slavery for centurys but certainly this was not through any endorsment from jesus .the christian west did finally quit slavery and then made the rest of the world follow suite . mostly

    to pretend that islam does not endorse and condone slavery is pure nonsense , there are some small sects in islam which choose to ignore calls to jihad ,bigotry and slavery.but they will certainly acknowlege its presense in the scriptures. slavery is certainly about profit and muslims like everyone else prefer to profit ,but in their case it is also about jihad . jihad is subjegation , murder , banditry and slaves .and all of this , when done to nonmuslims is completely kosher .

    the christian west ended slavery at home and on the high seas , no one else did scrunt .the christian west was less successfull in ending it in the interior of africa , where some muslims perpetuate it to this day . in sudan ,and dafur the hidieous border lands between black africa and the gahzis of allah .killing ,rapeing and takeing slaves . as we speak a similar those less dramatic jihad is being waged against the non muslims of southern thailand .

    intimidate ,murder ,kidnap young women ( if a 13 year old girl is taken , is not dead , and never returns , what is that called ?...begins with an S )
    .force the infidel to vacate the area ,really guys im not makeing any of this up . THIS IS TODAY ,RIGHT NOW , not the ottamons !!
    lebanon in 1960 was virtually a christian country .does anyone care to guess what percentage is christian now ? whatever it is ,next month it will be thousands less because every christian who can walk ,swim or jump is FLEEING . east indians ,africans ,thais , serbs ,copts and countless others . all are leaving places inhabited by their familys for centurys . they really dont want to leave the places twhere hey have always lived , but they must, and its not because of global warming .
     
  12. TISO

    TISO New Member

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    You obviously did not read my post interily or you are intentionaly misrepresneting my post for lack of your argument. I was just pointing to the holes in your biased theories and statistics. For enything else you wrote in your last post read my previous post again.
    What Mohammed and Jesus did or did not do is not the theme of the topic even if you want it to be as entire topic was obviously started with intent to blame everything on the muslims. You can't deny the fact that christians were doing it longer and on way more massive scale than muslims. Your take on theological debates on slavery are also a bit strange as christians did not seem to have a problem with reconciling slavery with the bible for 1700+ years.
    As for thone of your argument it is nothing new. We heard much of the similar during the last spell of wars in the Balcans from certain genocidal bastards on the christian side.

    Your last OFF TOPIC
    Lebanon's religious composition did not change since the 60's. It was never democraty in the normal sense as christian minority was always on top. What did change though was the awaikining of Shia, Sunni and Druze sense of belonging and their demands for equality. If you want to blame someone for this you should blame Israelis and their occupation of Lebanon in 80's. Christian militias and by them lead official army were the collaborators with foreign occupiers (in the best case sat on the fence) and muslims and Druze were the freedom fighters. Christian militias also did not diffrentiate between the Palestinian refugees and Lebenese muslims in their spell of atrocities.
     
  13. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    the atlantic slave trade is fairly well documented ,it lasted almost 300 years ,most historians place the number shipped at about 11 million .of which perhaps 6% went to north america .

    the muslim slave trade in africa has gone on for 14 centurys ,most of this period was poorly documented .what is belived is that the wastage was was very much higher as a percentage in the arab trade .most belive it was 70 to 80 % lost in the arab trade ,and about 10% in the atlantic .

    in the 10 decades of the 1800s , we do know that about 2 million black slaves arrived at muslim markets , so figure 7 or 8 million died in transit .this means that in one century arab traders enslaved nearly as many slaves as went to america over three centurys .

    my argument here is that arab muslim slavers were the worlds most prolific in africa .if we figure in the hindu slaves , there can be no argument that muslim jihadist slavers far outstrip any other people group in numbers of slaves taken . then of course there are the christian slaves taken in europe .

    if you belive the romans ,aztecs , byzantines , vikeings or whomever ,took more slaves than 14 centurys of muslim jihad slaveing carried out all over the known world from greenland to the philippines , please post some estimates .i think you will find that all the non muslim slavers in the world added together since the beginning of time cannot begin to catch the numbers taken by islamic slavers .

    as to lebanon in 1961 , i have data that places the christian population at 90% ,do you have a census or data from 61 that refutes this ratio?
     
  14. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    tiso, i hope you will agree that it was the christian west which put a stop to slavery starting with the efforts of willberforce in the early 1700s .if you have any shred of evidence of any oriental or muslim thinker that voiced any question or remorse ever, at any time , please do so .
     
  15. TISO

    TISO New Member

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    Wrong about the dates. In the US it was Lincoln who put the end to it and AFAIK it it didn't go away quietly unless you don't count US as western christian nation (wrong term IMHO). Not to mention French, Portugese and Spanish colonies and their succesor states. Wilberforce did however severly cramp and later almost stop (contrabanding slaves was a very profitable occupation) international slave trade ( across the atlantic), but did not stop slavery outside the British colonies.

    Also About Mauretania. Slavery in Mauritania was legally abolished by laws passed in 1905, 1961, and 1981. It was finally criminalized in August 2007.

    BTW the wiki articles you are so fond on citing all have either:
    or
    and/or
    attached to it.
     
  16. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    yes tiso ,though l did not actually site any stuff from wikki ( i will check it out )
    like you , i too noticed that the political correctness of any publication which sheds a negative light on the arab slave trade is greatly and hotly disputed and in fact one accademic noted that a sure way for a young history phd in the usa to commit carreer suicide would be to go sniffing arround the arab slave trade .this is clearly a taboo area for serious study and is best left alone . ( too bad , think of all those arab abolishinists that even a little reseach , is bound to uncover)

    and though only about 6% of slaves bound to the americas reached north america , there have been hundreds of books ,tons of articles ,movies and tv programs about the subject.
    from the sheer volume of text generated ,one would have assumed that 95% of slaves came to " NORTH AMERICA " and not the other way arround .

    in the usa today black leaders , ie jackson ,sharpton ,farekan et all ,love to wax eloquently about the stain of "500 years of slavery " ,i notice they are strangely mute about any muslim arab or black native involvement in african slaveing , which is strange of course ,because it is still
    going on even today .

    thank you for pointing out that though mauratiana "abolished slavery " a hundred years ago , the penalty until last year was the equivilent of a "fix it ticket " issued by a traffic cop .the slaves there must be very pleased .

    the french in north africa and the royal navy at sea ,mostly shut down the arab and north american trade and you know as well as i do ,were it not for their efforts , the huge arab slave markets would still be very much in business.
    wait , sorry , i ment to say "alleged slave markets " because we all know any eyewitness accounts written by any white skinned european observers is to be attacked on principle , is most likely untrue and is at best "highly disputed " by all correct thinking western accademics .

    as to this "abraham lincoln " fellow , thanks for the tip , i had never heard of him before .farrakan ,jackson and sharpton make no mention of him in their attempts to receive "huge cash reparations " from the us taxpayers .
     
  17. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    I'm not sure how relevant any of this is to the discussion, but from memory I offer the following:

    Although slavery was not made illeagal throughout the United States until 1865, the importation of slaves ended earler, around 1800. Slavery was outlawed in the British Empire around 1830. There were a maximum of 15 slave states, with a maximum of around 4,000,000 slaves by 1860. The estimated number of slaves imported into the area of the United States between 1600 - 1800 was roughly 500,000 - 1,000,000, probably on the lower end. Terrible though slavery was in the United States, it was far worse in the sugar plantations of the Caribbean, where large numbers of slave deaths occurred. I'm relying on memory, but I seem to recall numbers of 10,000,000 - 15,000,000 total slaves imported into all the Americas (not just the US, the US only importing a small number of them), not 20,000,000. I'm not familiar with the Atlas of Death, but I'll certainly look into it.
    I'm not trying to justify or minimize slave holding in the US up to 1865, just to put into context how small the number of slaves imported into the US was, compared to the overall number of slaves imported to the Americas, North, Central and South.
     

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