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Torch in Sardinia & Corsica, instead of N Africa

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by mjölnir, Mar 14, 2016.

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  1. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    I obviously used the reference to prove that the much smaller and weaker G3M carried 12 men and 2 containers (it also carried a torpedo or 800 kg of bombs and the H6K carried twice that)

    The more powerful H8K-2L carried 62 troops.
     
  2. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    There ain't much of anything you post that is "obvious". Perhaps you were trying to spell "oblivious"?

    64 actually. After June 1943.
     
  3. Terry D

    Terry D Active Member

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    Will someone please tell me what strategic point an invasion of either Sardinia or Corsica could have had in late 1942?

    1. Without command of the air in the western Med (which they didn't have at that point) the Allies could not have sustained forces on either island, at least not without sustaining grievous losses in shipping (which they were already short of). Convoys would have had to come all the way from Malta or Gib under enemy air and sub attack. Vichy would still have held the southern shore of the western Med and could have offered bases to the Axis--indeed Vichy would certainly have done so if Corsica had been invaded.
    2. Seizure of either island would have put the Allied forces in a strategic cul de sac at the end of a tenuous line of communication, as on Leros in 1943. The capture of either would not have endangered Mussolini's regime, would not have forced France back into the war on the Allied side, and would not have endangered Axis forces.
    3. TORCH as launched did do these things. One of the main objectives was to catch Rommel between two fires and crush his army, and that in the end was what happened. The Germans lost 11 divisions in Tunisia, all of them motorized, and large numbers of aircraft as well. TORCH did not bring Metropolitan France back into the war (Petain was as stupid and compliant with the Nazis as ever), but it brought French North Africa back into it and this greatly strengthened the Free French movement and armed forces, to the advantage of the Allies. TORCH also forced the Germans to stretch their already badly stretched forces across unoccupied France, and the seizure of the Vichy zone also led to the creation of the maquis groups in the south and the strengthening of the resistance. Mussolini lost an entire army in Tunisia and the Italian merchant marine, navy, and air force suffered terrible losses in the effort to sustain the Tunisian bridgehead. This, coming on top of the disaster to Italian 8th Army in Russia and the loss of Libya, killed all confidence in Mussolini's regime. Any case for an invasion of Corsica and Sardinia must be shown to have had a chance of similar strategic impact for such an operation to have been worth it. I don't think that such a case can be made.
    4. What the hell has the H6K got to do with any of this?
     
  4. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Good question Terry, but don't hold your breath waiting for a serious - or coherent - answer.
     
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  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Gomer,
    We know what the G3M could carry that is not in dispute. We do not know what the H6K could carry, that it what you want to source...But do it in the proper thread, not this one.

    The H8K2-L does not come into existence until mid-1943, and is of no use invading islands in 1941 or 1942 either in the Indian Ocean, Mediterranean, or the frozen
    seas of Io.


    Well, You see, Gomer is participating in some 4 "What If" threads now, and he can't keep the threads straight. So, he has been posting responses to one thread in a completely different thread.

    Thus we have Japanese H6Ks participating in the invasion of Sardinia, instead of the invasion of Ceylon. Smart money says that these H6Ks will soon appear in the invasion of Russia in June, 1941. These will by then be some pretty well traveled H6Ks.

    I blame a mixture of drugs, drink, and Early Onset Alzheimers.
     
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  6. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    The point is that the large air, land and naval force wasted attacking either
    1) Dieppe and Neutral Madagascar and in Pedestal and Wasp ferrying Spitfires to Malta in the Summer of 1942
    or 2) Neutral French Africa and in Britain (Mosquitoes, Spitfires, Beaufighters, etc,) in early Nov 1942
    achieves immediate air superiority in Sardinia, which has few axis planes in both periods. Sardninia was only reinforced heavily after Torch and that cannot be done with allied fighters already there.

    France still controlled Corsica at the time and the air, naval and land forces there are extremely weak (much more so than in Morocco or Algeria), so capturing it before the axis has time to do so (OTL after Torch and by the Italians, since the Germans had to invade Vichy first) makes a huge difference.
    There is no way the Italians will be able or even try to occupy Corsica with a large allied fleet and air force there already.

    Taking and inflicting casualties in French N Africa only alerted and provided time for the axis to redeploy from N FRance, the USSR, etc, to reinforce Tunisia, Sardinia, Corsica and Sicily.

    Invading Sardinia and Corsica with massive force, when there is a small LW in the area and the Italian air force is very weak, isolates Tunisia and precludes fast and easy LW deployment into Italy, Sardinia, Sicily and Tunisia. Bombers in Corsica and Sardinia can easily bomb the RR system which moves reinforcements and supplies from Germany through N Italy.

    OTL Corsica was captured without a fight and provided invaluable air force bases for thousands of missions in 1944. In this case it does so from early 1943, when German plane production is only rising and cannot make up for very heavy losses in the Italy, France and the USSR.

    Again, the capture of Sardinia and Corsica in Aug or Nov 1942 and heavy bombing of Italy causes Mussolini's fall early in 1943, but this time Germany has a hell of a time occupying Italy during Stalingrad and with a strong allied air force in in Corsica and Sardinia blasting away the RR system.

    The funny thing is that OTL in Nov 1942 there were thousands of allied planes doing little in Britain and French N Africa, while Hitler redeployed planes all the way from Stalingrad, etc, an easily reinforced Tunisia considerably (Malta being too small and too difficult to supply an effective air force in order to do much damage on axis shipping crossing the Narrows of Tunisia)-

    ATL those thousands of planes, men, field and AA guns, hundreds of ships, tanks, etc, attack 2 weak points adjacent to continental France and change imediately and completely the balance of air, sea and land power in the Med. Large Sardinia and Corsica allow a large force to be deployed and supplied in order to bomb Italy, France, Sicily, etc, to sink axis ships in the Narrows.and even to thwart German movements in Vichy (possibly saving the French fleet from scuttling, if it sails to Corsica or Sardinia) and in Italy.

    It is easier for the allies to reinforce, arm and support defenders in Toulon, than it is for German forces to arrive there under attack by allied planes and French warships (a much better fate than scuttling).
     
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    We understand what your point is and have rejected it. I.e it is wrong/fallacious/without merit etc.
     
  8. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    It's normal for you to think that invading strong, remote and useless Morocco and Algeria with huge forces makes more sense than invading invaluable, weak Corsica and enemy Sardinia, after all Winnie, FDR and most other amateurs did so too (and Madagascar, Syria, Dieppe, etc,).
     
  9. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Pardon me administrators, but DEAR FUCKING GOD this is obtuseness taken to its oblivious extreme.

    1) WHAT "large air, land and naval force" was utilized at Dieppe? Personnel casualties were large proportional to the force committed. The force committed was small.
    2) WHAT "large air, land and naval force" was utilized at Madagascar? Two carriers and two battleships along with an infantry brigade and the requisite transports and escorts.
    3) The alternative to PEDESTAL and the aircraft ferry missions to Malta was what?
    4) These are all independent actions and forces. Cumulatively they do not come close to the force committed to TORCH, nor do they add significantly to it.
    5) Are you saying the Allied air forces in Britain were inactive in 1942?

    WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in Ceylon? WHAT "large allied fleet and air force"? The Sangamons are not operational until late September, the Navy wasn't going to risk Ranger in the Central Med, and Wasp was en route to the Pacific. There are no air bases.

    Meanwhile, your task force will be hit from the northwest, north, east and southeast by Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica anti-ship aircraft... with air defenses of maybe 48 Seafires and Sea Hurricanes?

    What "massive force"? Corsica was abandoned without much of a fight, because the Allied capture of North Africa, Sicily, and Southern Italy had made Sardinia vulnerable and thus Corsica untenable.

    What makes up for the destruction of the weak amphibious task force you can commit?

    Or, as likely, the destruction of the Allied attempt on Sardinia bolsters Italian morale and Mussolini's position.

    Are you that much of an idiot that you do not realize that WITHOUT THE CAPTURE OF FRENCH NORTH AFRICA no allied planes, let alone thousands, can be based there?

    BTW, the only aircraft redeployed from Stalingrad to Tunisia were the Transportgruppen, which were doing no good in Stalingard anyway.

    Please identify these "thousands of planes, men, field and AA guns, hundreds of ships, tanks, etc". Just where and when are they, how do they magically appear off Sardinia, and how do you support them.

    Yet again, we are not discussing picking up handfuls of cardboard counters and moving them about a hex map.

    Meanwhile, you might want to look at a reaal map rather than the map of imagination you have squirreled away in your head.

    WTF do you think you are talking about? What "defenders in Toulon"? What Mickey Mouse Hollywood adventure idea are you imagining now? Is Captain America and his boys parachuting into Toulon to defend the French Fleet from Hydra?
     
  10. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Oh fuck me! Strong? French resistance in French Morocco and Algeria collapsed in three days. Tunisia was held only because it WAS remote - to French Morocco and Algeria. And it could not be taken as French Morocco and Algeria were, BECAUSE THE AVAILABLE ALLIED FORCES WERE NOT "HUGE". Ditto with regards to "weak" Corsica and Sardinia.

    Winnie and FDR made their share of mistakes, but thank God attempting an invasion of Sardinia and Corsica in "August or November of 1942" (why not September or October?) wasn't one of them. That idiocy was reserved for the resident amateur here.

    You are quite possibly the stupidest twit I have encountered in nearly twenty years on the Internet. In fact, I believe I have encountered more intelligent forms of life laying on their backs on the bottom of scummy ponds. Considering I have encountered robdab/dabrob, 67thTigers, L2007, Guaporense, and other incredibly persistent and stupidly obnoxious twits that is quite an achievement on your part.

    Congratulations or something.
     
  11. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Yes, fighting P-36, battleships, cruisers, thousands of men, forts, coastal guns, etc, gratuitously in useless French N Africa is much more difficult than landing in much more valuable, nearly undefended Corsica and in weakly defended enemy Sardinia.
    Bardia, Tobruk, etc, surrendered quite fast to O'Connor, Pantelleria surrendered within minutes of the landing and without allied casualties. How long do you think the French in Corsica and the isolated Italians in Sardinia (which defend even the airfields used by the Germans) will take to surrender when they see hundreds of ships and planes and thousands of naval shells? Do you think they plan to fight to the last man fighting heavyy artillery, tanks, paratroopers, massive field artillery and planes, like the Nazis in Normandy or simply surrender rapidly and survive the war?
     
  12. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Your noise to signal ratio has exceeded tolerance.

    You keep repeating bullshit as if the mere repetition will somehow decrease the odor of the excrement you spout.

    For the last time. WHAT FUCKING "hundreds of ships and planes and thousands of naval shells" and "heavyy artillery, tanks, paratroopers, massive field artillery and planes"?

    WTF does what O"Connor achieved in December 1940 have to do with "August or November" 1942?

    WTF does what pertained in Normandy in June 1944 have to do with "August or November" 1942?
     
  13. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    I shouldn't have to spell out everything, especially to impolite posters:
    300 ships and 107,000 men and hundreds of tanks took part in Torch. The 9 carriers, P-38, Beaufighters, Mosquitoes, B-25 from Malta and Gibraltar which I specified, the large number of planes deployed in French Africa after the landings plus hundreds of idle Spitfires in Britain, which are much more useful in Sardinia and Corsica add up to hundreds of planes on the first day and well over a thousand within a week.

    Hell, ATL the large allied fleet also takes Majorca at night, en route to Corsica, Franco has little fuel and obsolescent planes (CR.32, 1938 Soviet planes, He 111, etc,) to fight the allies. Majorca greatly simplifies single engine plane arrival in Sardinia and Corsica and improves antisubmarine warfare in the Med. Franco asks the allies for petrol, tyres, grain, and other badly needed goods as compensation for using Majorca. With allied planes in Majorca and Corsica, Franco stops favoring the Germans and sides with the allies, of course, remaining neutral.

    Supplying Malta is much easier after axis planes are wiped out in Sardinia and W Sicily, but it is less important, since axis ships are easily destroyed from Sardinia by a very strong air force..

    O'Connor in late 1940 and early 41 and Pantelleria in 1943 make the point that the Italians usually fought well when there was a strong WM force with them, but often surrendered readily when they were alone and isolated or with a very weak WM force and attacked by a strong force. In Sardinia in Aug or Nov 1942 there are very few Germans (LW) and with the allies in Corsica, they are completely isolated and they face a formidable force, so they surrender on the day of the invasion after sustaining heavy losses.
     
  14. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Don't look now...But, someone, and I shall not name names, is gratuitously fighting the neutral counties of Vichy France and Spain. How wasteful and inefficient that is. One should be more efficient and less wasteful with his resources and be fighting his declared enemies of Germany, Italy, and Japan.
     
  15. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Dupe post due to network hiccup.
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Of course you have to...This is your "beached whale", and we have spelt out our many reservations. Further, if we are becoming impolite, it is only because our questions have not be answered, or else answered with a rehash of the original premise - which is no answer at all. Finally, by not spelling out your answers, means that there is no answer, and the only way for your hypothetical course of action to take place is by either "Alien Space Bats" or more "Make It So" Captain Picard nonsense.
     
  17. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Conversely, Franco joins the Axis, Gibraltar is bombed and shelled into ineffectiveness as a major base the invasion of Sardinia, Corsica, and now Majorca, collapses, and the Allies go back to square one - invading French North Africa, but without the support from Gibraltar.
     
  18. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    That's a bit of a straw man though isn't it? Morocco and Algeria were not as other have mentioned strongly defended indeed the defending forces surrendered pretty quickly as expected. Nor was it remote indeed from the US or Britain, where the landing forces were coming from it was the closest reasonable target in the Med/NA. Torch was not FDRs first choice by the way and was chosen by military professionals not amateurs. So yes given the situation it did indeed make more sense at least to anyone with even a pretense of military understanding.
     
  19. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    lwd
    I have repeatedly stated that Patton's force faced a battleships, coastal guns, a cruiser, destroyers, planes, tanks, a fort, etc, hardly a walk in the park.
    It may be better to ask you to watch this excellent documentary instead:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVJysqKuiKQ&nohtml5=False

    there were also casualties and ships lost in Algeria

    Several top American generals and admirals objected to Torch, considering it a completely superfluous side show, a waste of time and resources, while the SOviets were losing millions and begging for a 2nd front in Europe.
    As in the PI, FDR had the final say. FDR was convinced by Winnie, the man who had not had a single successful strategy in the Dardanelles, the Soviet Union, Norway, France, Greece, Crete, HK, Malaya, Burma, Tobruk and Dieppe raids, Madagascar, etc, and who was obssessed with attacking neutral France, hardly an expert or even a reasonable man.
     
  20. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    the Germans did not fight to the last man in Normandy : most of their losses were POW's .
     
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