U.S. Decides Against Selling F-16’s to Taiwan

At some stage of the game, industrial powers have got to cease producing weapons and begin to produce products that bring consumers together in a frenzy of WANT for the product concerned.

Consumerism can be a unifying force in this respect. Look smug as you give a knowing glance and Jeremy clarkson nod of approval to another consumer that has bought your model of motor car. THIS is what I'm talking about. Precisely this is what will change Chinese attitudes. PRODUCTS that bring attitudes with their purchace.

I would much rather compete against China at the Olympics than compete to see who can produce the best all round jet fighter....or....who can rush to sell their Taiwanese cousins the same thing.

This kind of consumerism will change the face of Chinese people. It will awaken in them an old genetic pattern, one where merchantalism triumphed over all else.

And the Chinese do it better than most.

Lets see Taiwan go into the future as side by side competitors, rather than ideological enemies....and it begins on an individual level, with each person deciding that, after all, they have more in common than differences. It could begin right here.

I like Chinese
I like Chinese
They come from a long way over seas,
Yet their always friendly and their ready to please.

I like Chinese food,
The waiters never are rude,
Think of the many things they've done to impress,
Theres Maoism, Doaism, I Ching and Chess,

So I ....like chinese....I like chinese...I like...their tiny little trees
Their Zen, their Ping-Pong,
their Yin and Yangese.

 

VB, G'day -
Personally, I am not very impressed by Maoism (see quote below). For instance, The Great Leap Forward, which amplified (may have Caused?) the senseless famine of 1959-1961 which killed 20-43 million Chinese. < Peng Xizhe (彭希哲), "Demographic Consequences of the Great Leap Forward in China's Provinces," Population and Development Review 13, no. 4 (1987), 639-70. For a summary of other estimates, please refer to http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm> You may also want to read up on the equally senseless persecution of millions of China's intelligentsia (ringing a bell from the Russian Revolution) during the Cultural Revolution - implemented by Mao and "His" very own Gang of Four. The very four who are still chastised in Chinese society today, on account of their excesses on a wide variety of depraved actions.

Where did you find this bilge? Had not heard Idle's bit. I do enjoy his/Python's comedy. Glad that is what you reference.

Some of your points, however, are pretty good. This issue is very gray at best but carries huge implications for the World Outlook, as it plays out over the next few decades. Without all of the diplomatic and covert intelligence, including back-room political deals presently available it is very difficult to intelligently assess the situation. U.S. policy to deny these military aircraft to Taiwan does represent an enormous shift of foreign policy. We shall see if the excrement truly hits the fan. I am just saying. Taiwan is probably worth saving. At what cost - well that is the kicker isn't it? No fingers on buttons, to be sure.

 

@urqh - I would die to protect my family (consisting of the only child God ever blessed me with) here in Taiwan. They are good people with over 5,000 years of heritage living on this island as their home. After surviving incursions by Western powers, two invasions by the Chinese, and one by the Japanese, they certainly do not deserve to have their land stolen and culture destroyed by the CCP (a third Chinese invasion).

@VG - I am concerned that again you seem to present how cheaply your loyalty can be bought and paid for. You show little sense of honor, and no concern for others who wish to live peaceful lives unless you can personally make a profit from using them. You also appear to be notably racist and willing to insult others who aren't as sparkling white and well off as you. Taiwan has been winning the economic war against the PRC for 60 years; check per capita income levels & per capita gross domestic product. Furthermore, the PRC is known to cheat regularly in the Olympics. All BS aside, any valid investigation of history will show that China NEVER owned Formosa (except on paper), as they so deceptively claim. The term "Taiwan" was used only in reference to the central west coast of the island prior to the 1900s. The Japanese were the only ones who ever controlled the entire island, until the US brought the KMT here in 1945-6. Are you now ready to surrender your home in Australia to becoming a part of the PRC based on this historical note? 1421 the year china discovered America | Chinese discovered America | China 1421 | 1421 website | 1434 website After all, it's the same reason the PRC now claims the entire South China Sea...

@rkline56 - "U.S. policy to deny these military aircraft to Taiwan does represent an enormous shift of foreign policy." Right to the point! President Obama has turned his back on the democratic Taiwanese, along with every member of the US Armed Forces who served/died in the WW2 Pacific Theater to promote freedom and the right to self-determination in the face of expansionism and authoritarian rule, not to mention the unemployed Americans who could have had jobs from this sale (est. at 23,000). What kind of two-faced diplomacy is he running? He freely spends taxpayers money to support the freedom fighters in Libya while abandoning the ones who (as allies of the US for the past 60 years) finally succeeded decades ago in freeing Taiwan, and they must now go so far as to ask to PAY for US assistance yet be denied it?

 

It seems I'm the only one here thats heard Eric Idle's "I Like Chinese", from Monty Python's "Contractual Obligation Album". Mores the pity.

It is up to Taiwan now. They've been outclassed politically by their Chinese cousins. Alls fair in love and war eh?

All I can say is "Give Peace a Chance". You may prefer it to constant Orwellian conflict.

As for being bought cheaply, I say, if you can stop a war....DO SO at once! Don't push the tired and mouldy doctrine of the "Red Menace" way past it's use by date. As for your insults, I can only say that those that stoop first have lost the conflict of words. Where do you get the idea that there is any honour in conflict? You play to win. This is something the United States has taught me....PLAY THE GAME TO WIN.

It sounds like the PRC are on a winning wicket at the moment. What can you do to prevent this. The same as we all can....NOTHING. Those with the dollars will win every time.

This reminds me of the old world Samuari advancing in extended lines at Nagashino, expecting the enemy to 'honourably' come out and take them on one by one. Instead, the new matchlock musket cut them down, one after another, their sence of honour intact, their bodies broken by musket balls.

Don't let the Taiwanese go the same way.

 

This is extremely naive. Until democracy supplants the CCP, it will remain a threat to its neighbors
and to American geopolitical interests in the Pacific.

Dave

 

Hi Colonel FOG

Surely the current situation of Taiwan vis a vis PRC is an unstable one and not one which can not endure in the long term.

Personally I don't think America can afford its huge defence umbrella and all her Allies are going to have to look after themselves more than in the past. This is going to be particularly difficult for Taiwan in my view.

I deal with a Taiwanese Company and while 15 years ago they manufactured everything in Taiwan, today all but the finally 5% of manufacturing process is carried out in the PRC by their subsidiaries. This is definitely not unusual, there are many many Taiwanese companies with subsidiaries in PRC. Business as usual does not recognise political borders.

Despite what you write the Taiwanese I have met all see themselves as Chinese (admittedly the owners of the Company). I believe that their hope for the future is a gradual change in the PRC with greater democracy and eventual reunion.

In the meantime you obviously need to keep up your guard but surely the above is a better solution that the current situation.

 

Col Fog. I wouldnt doubt you dying for your family. Thats what we all would do.
Some of us stood on the cold war wall which wasnt as cold as some think..And were
prepared to give all for other peoples families too. Its what we do. However, I'll
take it as a given that an inhabitant of any country will protect what he has at
all costs. Thats why we fight wars. However Mutually assured destruction M.A.D
went out with the Berllin wall. Cold war is cool and I know is still ongoing. But..My
comment was to the Americans on here...Would they die or see New York
flattened with all the dead involved...For Taiwan? Would they do it for Georgia?
How about Lithunaia, Estonia, Birmingham UK....? I would die for my family. Would
it be acceptable to lose major US cities for Taiwan? Defcon must work, detterence has its place. But its words. UAV's may work in Iraq and Afghanistan, but the
Chinese are not the Mujhadeen. M.A.D. days are over. The umberella does not
exist or at least the intent to use it does not exist. Anyone thinking an American
president would today sacrifice Washington for Liverpool is living in la la land.

 

better political naivete' than Cold Warrior Anachronism.

I live in the 21st century, not in the mid 1950's.

You should too. The cold War was the most useless conflict of all. If the Chinese wanted to join forces with their ideologues, they would have done so during the Korean Police Action. The fact that they haven't, and now posess 'one party, two systems" shows thatb they are, at least, moving forward.

Embrace them. The only way to get rid of them as enemies is to turn them back to what they once were....FRIENDS.

We played off Germany against the Soviets, and that enabled us to win the arms race and The Cold War. Now, don't get a big head about it. Use the opportunity to guarantee a lasting peace, not just with superior fire-power, (Reaganism), but with OBAMAISM.

CHANGE.....or let the Chinese overtake you. Then you've lost anyway, so change NOW....while you still have the ability to do so.

Don't let the next Super Power play the United States like a fine instrument. As individuals, we must create lasting social ties that will indicate our intentions for the future. The Internet COULD play a big part. This is also why I was so proud when we had a Prime Minister who could speak Mandarin-Chinese fluently.

Change....or go under....it's up to YOU

PS....I LOVE the United States and it's people. It is, without doubt, the greatest country on earth. Vibrant, dynamic, rich, poor, astounding, beautiful....it's all there. Don't bugger it up. You'll take the rest of us down with you.

Remember The Great War. Remember how alliances dictated strategy, and pulled major powers into conflicts that none of them wanted, yet fought anyway just to please their friends. Don't make the same mistakes. LEARN from history.

Christopher

 

American geopolitical interests in the Pacific

Ahhhh...I see..

 

@ Dave - Touche'! I've never been able to understand people whose only interest in life is making sure their wallets remain bigger than their hearts, be they Americans, Chinese, Aussies, or residents of Bora Bora. They're all just backstabbing opportunists waiting to stand on the bodies of those who sacrificed their lives so they can expound on how they have the divine right to capitalize on the misfortunes of others.

Anybody care to link this thread back to a conversation on WW2?

 

@scipio - Nobody has asked for the PRC to build the F-16s for Taiwan. Looking at it as "business is business" isn't such a bad thought. Let Taiwan BUY the jets, so they can remain on guard until the PRC changes its ways.

I live here in Taiwan. Over the years, I have often asked a variety of Taiwan's residents if they feel they are Taiwanese, older Chinese, or Mainland Chinese. I have not yet encountered a resident here that wishes to be called "Mainland Chinese", the facial expression in response is one of horror that I would even think to ask.

 

Rather than calling it Orwellian conflict , I'd call it David Vs Goliath ( the Chinese Commies, not the German airplane ). In my eyes they are more like Resistants , not Renegades as they were certnainly around before Mao and his henchmen.

I like the fact that a small country resists a much bigger one. It's funny to see how Communism condems Imperialism unless it affects it's "own" so called sphere of influence.

I have always felt sorry for the inhabitants of Hainan when they were eventually annexed after China's invasion and I'm glad Mao run into a wall with Taiwan.

 

@Skipper - I am part of that wall to the extent that I am able to serve. Thank you.

You might be interested in what I dug up today about the Kamikazes in Karenko (Hualien). The puzzle pieces are beginning to fit together here. See my new thread.

Side topic: The last "Japanese Soldier" found in a remote area in 1974, was actually a Taiwanese Aboriginal (Amis Tribe, same as my wife).
Teruo Nakamura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm chock full of interesting stories from around here for you WW2 buffs to learn about. LOL
Got any 50-centers lurking hereabouts that the Phoenix Eye would be interested in seeing and eliminating?

 

Fog...

When your wallet is bulging, your heart allows things that it would not if you had the arse out of your trousers. The one sure fire way to a peaceful co-existence is to make everybody PROSPER. Then, they do not have time for thinking of anything else.

What are some of the principle causes of the Great War? Germany wanted a slice of Empire....it wanted a bulging wallet, it's "Place in the Sun"....econonics...

The Nazi's grew to popularity as a direct result of middle class poverty brought on by the Great Depression...economics as the engine of conflict again....

Korea....The North had a widening gap between it and the South. All the money and jobs were in the South. For this reason, they needed help from their nieghbours. A rich and powerful North may not have recieved such sympathy and aid from it's mates....economics as a driving force for widening the war....

So it goes. If both the Taiwanese and the PRC are prospering, if a greater majority of their people are making a good living out of the status quo, then this is a darned good reason to keep things the way they are, rather than fighting some damned fool ideological crusade that ruins families, breaks society down, and costs far more money and resources than the protagonists care to mention.

Getting the picture?

Full wallets are good for politics.

And for PEACE...I quote the last line of Eric Idle's song....

"If Darwin is anything to shout about, the Chinese will survive us all without any doubt...."

 

I will certainly have a look when time permits. Kamikazes in Formosa is a subject I had not heard of before.

 

Seems reasonable...And as the knights of the round table would say...Every
sperm is sacred...If you summise correctly old chap then I'm thinking now Libya is
nearly done and dusted...Save for the last battle which moves around daily...I
better get me tin hat out before Dave Cameron marches us into Iceland.

 

@VG - The fact that Taiwan maintains modest but effective defense capabilities is what is "keeping things the way they are". Your support of undermining this defensive capability is going to upset a delicately balanced apple cart, and all those apples will be spilling over and rolling onto an already over-populated island. As a good example, see what happened to Hong Kong when the PRC got its hands on it... a massive diaspora of Mainlanders. I suggest you reconsider your position on this matter.

 

Northern Ireland anyone??

 

They only come up to your knees!...I like Chineees...i like chineeesss....

 

What no-one seems to have mentioned is that F-16s for Taiwan would be pretty pointless...its an old generation fighter, living in a world of next gen fighters...MiGs...F-35s...China's new stealth aircraft, which should be pretty good...Who could Taiwan fight with these? (Remembering avionics are the most important part of a fighter these days anyway).
This has been a most interesting conversation, congrats to all for keeping it civil and intellectual...I have to agree with Volga on many points (except Australia being a second rate military...i'd argue against that). China has not shown itself to be a war mongering country, at one stage in history anything and everything worthwhile came out of China...they have an inglorious (RECENT) history, particularly under Mao...but China is so much more than Mao and communism....China is changing and we will all be better off for it. We (Australia) like China, always have, and most other countries would do well to understand THEM and learn to see things from their point of view. Im not saying they are perfect by any stretch, but they simply arent the Boogey men some make them out to be...They will be as arrogant, thoughtless, selfish as any other Superpower, they will just be judged more harshly for it.