US on the left and Brits on the right

Sorry, I know that Monty was in command of the entire landing, I was refering to the British vs the Americans.

On several occasions the German Armor did disengage at one point even moving 3 armored divisions to try and cut off the American break out to the south. Yes there was constant pressure by all involved all did excellent things, but in the end it was the Germans that chose where to field their units. Holding the initiative and deployment of units are two different things. The Germans could have moved their armor further south had they wanted to, they would have had to move infantry around but it was still possible, this is what I was getting at.

 

Holding the intiative is making the enemy react to your moves. The deployment of the German forces was in reaction to Allied actions

They could have, but it would have weakened the forces facing the British, and while the British kept attacking they were fearful that this would enable a British breakthrough.
The fact that the Germans later moved armoured divisions south in response to the US breakthrough shows that they were still responding to Allied actions

 

No the German deployment was the German decision to the allied action. No where no how does your enemies movement require you to do anything. The Choice was made how to deploy, yes the situation on the battlefield affects (or should) your deployment, but it doesn't have too.

Reaction yes, forgone conclusion no. Would you also like to say then that the Battle of the Bulge was a response to allied actions? So did the Allies loose the initiative?

 

tikilal

'Would you also like to say then that the Battle of the Bulge was a response to allied actions? So did the Allies loose the initiative?'

What is this?

Overlord happened during the Summer of '44
Wacht am Rhein happened in the winter of 44-45

Wacht am Rhein was a german offensive. During the early stages the germans held the initiative. But in typical german fashion the lack of a proper logistical system made the offensive run out of steam. To make matters worse the weather cleared up and the Allied tactical airforce pounded the germans.

Operation Market Garden was an Allied (or would you prefer just Monty) operation that saw the allies grab the initiative but loose it.

Initiative is one of the most difficult aspects to master in warfare. It is also one of the hardest things to instill in soldiers.

Look at the french campaign in 1940. Looking at the forces before the battle it would suggest that the germans would fail. But doctrinal advantages ensured that the germans held the initiative all through the campaign. There was plenty of opportunity for the allies to retain it, but the manouvre doctrine of the germans also sapped the communications and higher command. Yes there was local actions that showed that the allies did regain initiative, and let us not forget that Herr Hitler himself stopped his armour.

 

Yes. The Allies did lose the initiative at the start of the Battle of the Bulge.

 

But regained it later.

 

For the Germans it seems the attack went wrong from the beginning. The tanks were meant to be used ONLY once the breakthrough was created by the attack of their infantry. This did not manage to make it and the tanks were used for getting through the front and the Germans lost tanks and time which both they could not afford to lose.

 

I did not mean to change the subject to the Battle of the Bulge.

What I was trying to show was the difference between Reaction and Initiative. Now we can talk about local initative all the way up to the stratigic level (where I thought we were at) but we need to make sure that we are not mixing them up.

 

My only thought is if the US Leaders would have priority on taking Antwerp as they rush across Belgium in late August/early Spetember. Or, would they have also become enamoured with the idea of breaching the Rhine instead.

 

No...

 

"From 1 Aug, when Patton's Third Army was activated at Avranches, to 26 Aug, when it's lead elements reached the Seine near Troyes, the army had advanced approximately 260 miles an average of 10 miles a day. Meanwhile, 21st Army Group was still facing the bulk of the German panzer divisions and facing an enemy fighting for it's life while attempting to escape the Falaise pocket. Patton was advancing against negligible opposition. But from 26 August on, when the bulk of the Allied forces had closed to and crossed the Seine, 21st Army Group reached Antwerp on 4 Sep, a distance of approx 200 miles in nine days an average of 22 miles a day, and Maastricht on 14 Sept, a distance of 250 miles from the Seine. Meanwhile, in that same period, Patton advanced 100-150 miles"

As you can see, when Montys 21st Army broke out, it travelled at a faster rate than Pattons 3rd Army

 

The operation that Redcoat referrs to is called 'the great swan'
(mentioned in my earlier posts)

 

I read that Patton had alot of rivers to cross. Was Monty also facing the problem of rivers with no bridges? ( just asking...)

 

Sirs, I know this thread is basically about the breakout phase of D-Day but after reading all your very informative posts, I just can't help but wonder how a British division would've handled Omaha's defenses. The British had Hobart's Funnies, which the US refused to use when the British offered the equipment to them.
Since you guys really know about this stuff, how would a British division fare against Omaha's defenses.

P.S. I checked the what if's to find out if this was asked before. I found none. I thought about starting a new thread but the title would've been very similar to the title of this thread. I hope I didn't go off topic. If I did, I apologize in advance. I am just really curious how the British would've handled Omaha.

 

The British and Canadian beaches all had a longer bombardment from naval units on D-day, (IIRC 1.5 hours against 45 minutes) and did use a greater variety of specialised armour, but I've no doubt the outcome would have been the same, a successful landing. Casualties may have been a little lower, but that's the only difference I can see.

 

Get a map.

 

Perhaps you can direct me to the direction of a map with intact bridges then....