USA Image problem?

The thing is the Americans tried to conceal their atrocities during Vietnam but Serbia they were looking for them. Honestly if you are trying to look for something your more likely to find it rather when your trying to conceal it from the public.

 

How do you know that the US tried to conceal anything about Vietnam? Where does that information come from? Bringing Lt. Calley up on muder charges(that was of course reported on extensively around the world) is a strange way to run a cover up, wouldn't you say?

 

Oh come on...
Theres plenty of proof for this one.
Its not just some extraordianary co-incidence that tens of thousands of Vietnamese who were alive during or born after the war, suddenly suffer the effcets of dioxin poisoning...

Its painfully obvious that something during the Vietnam war caused such an 'outbreak', if not Agent Orange then what was it?

- Agent orange leaves behind a dioxin reside
- 75 million tons were sprayed during the war
- Dioxin poisioning causes muscular and skeletal problems
- The disabilitise occur mostly in areas which were highly exposed to diotoxin
- The effects are well documented, academically and photographically

What more proof do you need?

Seriously Grieg... Unless I'm mistaken, you're a doctor, isn't that right? What other logical explanation is there for why there are so many disfigured people in Vietname since the war?

Whether it is a "war crime" is another issue altogether (and one I don't wish to argue about just yet :smok: ) But as far as casuation is concerned, there is no other possible explanation... Agent Orange is responsible for the increase in debilitating disfigurment in Vietnam

 

Agens orange:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange Nice info,maybe is wiki not best source,but some things there must be a truth.

ANd greig ur post,no evidence they was alive draged with AFV,allso no evidence that they was dead right?Newerless,3 mil ppl is not small number...

 

I've not seen this overwhelming evidence that you refer to. I am not a physician but I work in the medical field (diagnosing vascular disease).
Perhaps a link to some of this evidence and I will try and find time to study it. Be aware that many things that are accepted as fact by the general public , such as the link between breast implants and disease, have little or no scientific basis to support them. The belief that there is a link was created by lawyers and the media, not by scientists.

Just as can be seen by the site that sinissa posted to "prove" his war crimes thesis most of the internet "data" that people rely upon is nonsense. Biased non-scientific garbage.

 

It's nearly impossible to prove a negative. i.e. that something did not happen...war crimes were NOT committed. That is a basic fact of debate based on logic. The affirnative assumption ..that something DID happen is subject to disproof by an absence of evidence establishing that it did happen.
If one makes claims of a crime being committed then the burden of proof is to provide credible evidence that it occurred then the evidence can be refuted. When no credible evidence is put forward there is no need to refute it.

Yes 3 million is a large number. 10 million is larger, 10 billion is even larger. Very interesting except those all have one thing in common; they are just meaningless numbers,
Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

The pictures:

pic of American M16 rifle being held against a civilian woman's head.
Firstly, who is holding that gun? And who is that woman? and was she actually shot?

Picture of American soldier laughing historically at the charred remains of a VC soldier who was burned to death by a Napalm Bomb.
He ain't laughing. Even if he was, that just means he has a sick sense of humour.

Picture of American GI's using water torture to extract information from a Communist soldier
This is a possible. Or does it show American soldiers giving water to a wounded man?

Image of American Army grunt committing war crimes in Vietnam
No, it's an image of a US soldier tying the hands of a prisoner.

Pictures of Dummy portraying Northern POW
This one is interesting, as the caption can be read in many ways. Is this a prisoner of the North? Or a northener who is a prisoner? Because we know how nice the North Vietnamise POW camps were... Is he actually a prisoner of the Americans?

Picture of American armored fighting vehicle dragging men to their death. Remember Somalia when America claimed higher ground when war lords drug US pilots around the capital
Or a picture of a US AFV dragging corpses. Heck, they might even be dragging them off in order to bury them...

All the Agent Orange stuff
Well, as I understand it (though I might be wrong) Agent Orange was not targetted at humans. It was designed to defoliate the forest to deny their use as camoflage to the enemy. People got in the way (which is awful) but that was not intentional. The US did not deliberately drop a chemical on Vietnam specifically to screw up the next generation of children.

This might seem a clod-blooded assessment (it is!) but that's the law for you.

I think you're right! I left a 0 out...

 

Not in itself, but in the context of a 16-year long war involving two halves of one nation, and troops from all the neighbouring nations plus a Superpower and a few of its allies, then actually it is a reasonable number*. But again, it is an estimate. I have seen figures ranging from under 2 million to just under 6 million quoted, and a figure of 20 million given by the North Vietnamise at one point, but that's just funny.


* 3 million dead is never reasonable, but you know what I mean.

 

Acctualy deformities coused by agent orange i.e. Dioxin are well documented. It is also quite easy to establish if dioxin i.e. Agent orange is the couse as it accumulates in the body. This statment is on the ame level as statment that Srebrenica massacer never happened.

 

Fine. I asked for a link to the scientific studies. Anybody?

BTW..I doubt it would accumulate in the bodies of the people born with defects (assuming the correctness of your hypothesis)but instead in their parents.

 

Here, I've provided a US government source (hopefully that is credible enough )

http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/



http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/docs/VHIagentorange.pdf : Government report on Agent Orange and Symptoms - Read the "Message from the Under Secretary For Health" on the third page

http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/page.cfm?pg=1 : The "Agent Orange Reivew" published by the United States Government Department of Veteran's Affairs... These are the 'scientific studies' you asked for... If you can understand them, my hat is off to you

Because it is an American Government page the material relates almost entirely to legislation in regard to Veterans suffering from Agent Orange (and not Vietnamese civilians)... It provides information concerning services for Veterans suffering from exposure to Agent Orange and the Review provides detailed scientific analysis of the symptoms and effects of Agent Orange.

I think this proves conclusively that the American Government acknowleges the detrimental effects of Agent Orange upon the human body...

Many Vietnamese suffer the same symptoms as the Veterans (who are entitled to compensation)... Same war, same exposure, same symptoms... If such symptoms are legally attributable to Agent Orange in American servicemen (by the US govt.), it follows naturally that the Vietnamese servicemen and civilians who suffer the same side-effects have the same condition; exposure to Agent Orange

 

Riki regard the comments,but PIC r enought.....Seriusly,aming a gun in old womman....draging the corpses like sacks....Fine,i cant convert what u think about this,and agent orange...it remind me a bit with all this DU fuzz....

 

You linked them but apparently didn't read them did you? A blizzard of links to Veterans Administration regarding Agent Orange is not scientific data of a causative link between dioxin and birth defects. Since the issue is big one with Veterans you can find lots of discussion of the issue by the VA but a definitive shortage of scientific data.
I have found no evidence yet of a provable link with dioxin to birth defects. A rare type of leukemia perhaps but no conclusive evidence of birth defects which is what we are discussing.
I'm keeping an open mind though. As I read it the AFHS study (the largest of it's kind regarding possible health effects of dioxin) concludes basically that more study is needed.
You mention conclusive proof..where can I find that?

 

They payed alot cash,and none to Vietnam Victims...

 

Here is one more things why US look bad in world.When Israel made agression on lebanon,UN prepared resolution to judge IDF attack,but,US put Veto on that.Any good reasons?

Here r some PIC about that....
http://www.gidaraporu.com/israil/slides/burned by Israeli attacks.html

 

Apparently,you don't understand how the legal system operates in the US.
The fact that they paid out of court settlements doesn't prove anything except that it's cheaper to pay settlements than it is to contest the issue in court. The VA is not a science based organization. They are an agency of the federal bureacracy.
I'm still waiting to see the scientific data that was promised.

 

I probably read more than you did... Read the 1997 November Review
http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/docs/age ... ol14-1.PDF

There are apparently 14 other recognised birth defects for which US will copensate for exposure to Agent Orange

There you are... The US government compensates for Veterans exposed to Agent Orange who have disabled offspring... Unfortunately I have no proof that this legislation is not just an 'out of court settlement' designed to avoid another costly court case...

But who cares? You're never going to believe that this is a scientific link between dioxin and birth defects anyway... What I'm trying to show is that it is a legal causative link... As far as US Law is concerned, Dioxin causes birth defects

 

Apparently you either didn't read or didn't understand my last post, either.
As a veteran I am well aware of the VA's stance on Agent Orange.However nothing you posted is responsive to my remarks. As I indicated previously there are political and legal factors that account for the actions of the VA and the federal government on this issue.
There were huge legal settlements and payout for breast implant suits also despite there being no scientific data to establish a causative link.
The largest and most comprehensive scientific study examined thousands of veterans who were exposed to Agent Orange concluded that further study was needed.
You can post a blizzard of opinions on the subject. They are out there and most of them support the link and there is a good reason for that; it's called self interest. Who doesn't want to receive a large bag of cash?
Still waiting for the science that establishes causation though.

 

see also ...second hand smoke ,crack babies ,gulf war syndrome.....all maladies accepted as proven when in fact ,all are based on anecdote and junk science ...if enough people think its true ,it becomes gospel .....for one thing, jurys are selected from ordinary people off the street ...if the case is complicated ....science or complicated finance ...the jury is soon at sea and without a clue ,,the plaintiffs lawyers love this ...and defendants know they are gonna get the shaft ..to even fight such accusations make the govt or a big corperation look mean spireted and uncareing ....so settle , your gonna lose anyway....ideally a complicated case involveing high level data and math ,statistics ,science or banking and finance should be heard by people with a working knowledge of such things and not plumbers and housewives....

 

Like I already said in my last posts Grieg,I cannot prove to you that the US courts don't simply compensate in order to avoid more expensive litigation... However, likewise, I doubt you can prove that they do :smok:

That doesn't change the fact that the USA legally acknowleges that Agent Orange causes birth defects. Its written in the legislation, for whatever reasons, whether it be scientific proof or legislative convienience... The fact is that US Law recognises a link between Agent Orange and birth defects: Forget about the reasons for just one second, if you disagree with this, and you don't think that US Law recongnises such a link, please say so... I am only trying to demonstrate to you that your own country legally accepts that Agent Orange causes birth defects, whatever the reason...

And anyway, despite the lack of absolute scientific proof, anyone with a vague understanding of the law of probabilities can see that Agent Orange is most likely to have caused the birth defects... What other plausible explanation is there?

What else could possibly cause such an outbreak of birth defects in post war Vietnam? We all know Dioxin is very bad for you, and it was showered all over the coutry in megagallons... Please, if not Agent Orange, tell me exactly what you think the reason for the defects are... Is it...
- Agent Orange
- Another weapon (please specify)
- Its just a freak co-incidence
- The Vietnamese are lying!!!
- Other (please specify)