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Useless German weapons made during the war.

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by DerGiLLster, May 3, 2016.

  1. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    The reliability was abysmal even at its best. Realistically they could have improved it but not enough to make it worth producing and putting any significant numbers into operation. The fact that jets are fuel hungry hurts the Germans more than the allies, the allies had plenty of fuel the Germans did not. The Germans did indeed have to worry about fuel indeed it became a critical concern. The Battle of Britain was indeed lost in part because the fighting was over Britain but it was also a much more even contest. The jets don't have to fly close escort and there will still be piston engine fighters escorting the bombers. As it was the allies would rotate the fighters for a raid and they had the numbers to do so. Consider also that as it was the German pilot training program suffered due to lack of fuel. What happens to your training program when you start producing lots of difficult to fly, fuel hungry planes that are a logistical nightmare to keep in the air .
     
  2. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    No 10-25 hours is not enough. If you assume an exponential failure rate for instance a 10 hour life span means that with 2 hour missions one will loose an engine in flight 2 out of every 5 missions. It's also going to require you to have essentially 2 sets of engines for every fighter you want to keep in service (or perhaps better for every pilot you have flying them). That may be an underestimate by the way.

    As for redesigning did they? How much in the way of such materials did they initially use?

    I think you are far too certain that the V-1 resources being committed to jet engines would have produced the effect you think it would have. The allies put a lot of resources into play against the V-1, if it's not there they also have resources they can use elsewhere.
     
  3. DerGiLLster

    DerGiLLster Member

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    Not worth producing? The hours of reliability was twice in the hands of a skilled pilot. For every loss of a Me 262 there were 4-5 aircraft were downed. For the cost of a single engine it was 10,000 reichmarks and they were building hundreds of V-2's considering they cost several times than the jet engines and they took way more fuel than that of a jet fighter(not saying the V-2 had shared any of the same materials to be put into jet engines, but creating a jet engine at that time would have been a greater investment as it advanced significantly more than the ballistic missile.).

    Adolf Galland, a fighter who had shot down 104 western allied fighters was begging for the fighter to get into production but top officials had prohibited it. Also, looking at the Me 163 it claimed 16 victories for ten losses. That was from a plane that went much too fast, had less than ten minutes of fuel, with dual 30mm cannons. The Me 262 on the other hand could fly for around an hour and cruise at the maximum speed of a Mustang, and had quadruple 30mm cannons and it only took 3-4 shots to down a bomber. If a rocket plane that had half the armament of a Me 262 and only around an eighth of of the fuel to be used against jet bombers was able to claim a 8:5 ratio of wins over losses, then the Me 262 would have been able to to have a higher kill to loss considering its practicality was way above the Me 163.

    Rotate the fighters for a raid? That's going to be problem since all jets have a range issue, for the offensive that was a problem, while for the defensive that was not. No allied jet fighter was going to fly over Germany. Period. Even the P-80 shooting stars had barely enough to cover a trip from london to berlin and that is going to be reduced when flying faster and conducting maneuvers. It was considered too risky since they knew that if a jet was to be shot down, the Germans should take influence of its reliable design and use it improve their fighter. Many pilots did eventually learn to overcome the flaws of the Me 262. Of course the problems with the engines were fixed in the war, this shouldn't be a concern as long as they were fighting over Reich territory.

    According to Wikipedia(Oil Campaign targets of World War II),included with the references they have provided, Germany was making around 300,000 tons of oil per year,a significant amount of the oil came from Germany, assuming half goes into tanks and vehicles. That would leave Germany with 150,000 tons of oil. If they had relaxed production on do 335, the me 163 and stop testing other tests, they would seem to have quite enough oil to fuel Me 262s, for the Germans were pumping and refining oil harder in 1943/1944 for the fear of the Russians coming and storing them. Considering that they had put their attention on the Me 262, and avoid all other airplane projects during the war, along with giving the night fighter to the Me 262, of course after some testing to go with it, they would create much higher losses making the extra fuel worth it for the higher losses of the bombers, being able to inflict less damage on the German refineries. This would have been more significant had it been realized earlier in the war.
     
  4. DerGiLLster

    DerGiLLster Member

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    If 10-25 hours was not enough then why did it cause such high win to loss ratio? Going back to an earlier reply, each engine had cost 10,000 reichmarks. Duriing the last months of 1944, when bombing runs were causing much more damage than in the early months of that year, they were able to build around 1,500 units a month. Sir Roy Fedden estimated that 100,000 units could have been produced. Now imagine if they had dropped testing for all the other aircraft and focused that on the Me 262.

    For the redesign, it was nothing to completely alter the engines. All they had done was to make the engines reincorporate less of the strategic materials needed, thus allowing a cheaper and easier to produce jet engine.

    And there would be no resources diverted for the allies if Germany had focused on making the Me 262s? With there being a greater numbers, Allied Bombing would have suffered more losses. USAAF General Carl Spaatz had expressed fear that if more of these jets appeared they would have had to cancel daylight bombing operations and turn to nighttime bombing.
     
  5. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

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    Let's consider the circumstances under which Gustav could be used. Obviously it had to be within range of its target, and it was also necessary that the front line be stable, that the enemy not be able to reach or raid the area where the gun and its elaborate railroad infrastructure were assembled and operated. The Germans would also need near-total air supremacy; the gun, its crew, and the precisely laid out tracks on which it moved were totally exposed.

    If you have all these, you could just as easily use an aircraft based a short distance behind the front lines. It would only need enough fuel to climb to altitude en route to the target and return. It would have little need of defensive armament, not to mention that fighter escort provided better protection than a bomber's own guns. Under those conditions carrying a Tallboy/Gustav class bomb was within the payload capacity of aircraft under development in the 1930s.

    Gustav was conceived in the mid-1930s as a means of engaging the Maginot Line fortresses, which would satisfy the requirement for a static front line. On the other hand, constructing the firing position with its dual-track railroad could hardly be concealed, let alone actually assembling the weapon. They would need a level of air supremacy that could stop hit-and run raids by day or night.

    And that is probably the most favorable situation for use of Gustav. Something like the siege of Sevastopol required moving the gun and all its components a thousand miles, displacing any other use that might have been made of the rail lines involved, building the firing postion, using it for a few days, then tearing it all up and shipping it home or off another thousand miles to someplace like Leningrad. It would far easier to fly a few planes to a suitable airfield, which could be improved if necessary at considerably less effort than preparing the Gustav firing position, and easier to redeploy the aircraft when the mission is complete.

    Perhaps the best argument for aircraft is that they can be used for other things. I have never been one of those who insists that Germany needed a massive heavy bomber force, but a few large bomber/reconnaissance/transport aircraft could have been useful for a variety of missions.

    p.s. the Germans never built or even started the Type XI. It would have been a cruiser submarine similar to the British X-1, with two twin 5" turrets. Just as with tanks, battleships, aircraft etc. they had a lot of......imaginative U-boat concepts that never came near fruition.
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    The V-2 was essentially the same as the cost of a Me-262 with engines. Of course the V--2 could only be used once and it's accuracy was minimal so yes the Me-262 was a better choice. But quite a few Me-262s were built and never used as well so what do you gain by devoting those resources to it?

    True a skilled pilot could get ~25 hours out of an engine instead of ~12 hours but that's still atrocious. There's also the cost of gaining that skill and maintaining the plane. Consider also the Me-262 losses went up over time as the allies figured out how to deal with them even with piston planes. After mid 44 the range issue with allied jets isn't going to be as significant either as they can be based in Western Europe closer to Germany and even before that they could at least protect raids on western Germany including the Ruhr.

    Why are you assuming half the oil production goes to tanks and "vehicles"? Planes aren't the only other besides tanks and trucks that required fuel either. Indeed in 41 and 42 German agriculture was allocated almost 240,000 tons (1.7 million barrels) and they weren't getting all they needed. Then theirs industry and lubricants. Test programs don't typically use huge amounts of oil either.
     
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    The loss ratio is a rather misleading thing to look at when you are looking at a small sample particularly of an advanced weapons. Look at the loss ratio of US fighters that managed to get air born at Pearl Harbor. In the case of the Me-262 you had a system that took the allies some time to figure out how to deal with it and it was also being flown by some of the bet pilots Germany had left.

    Indeed if they had dropped testing of all other aircraft they could have had a few more sitting at the factories waiting for pilots that would never come. Note that the never had more than 200 operational at any one point in time. Without more info that 100,000 number seams pretty questionable in any case. Especially since total production of the JUMO 4 engines was 5-8K. Of course that estimate is for yearly production in 46. What assumptions is he making?

    Indeed the resource devoted to countering the V-1 and potentially others would likely have been allocated vs the Me-262 but the allies had an abundance of resources. Absent the V-1 for instance the number of AAA units in Britain as well as fighter units could have been significantly reduced by late August of 44.
     
  8. DerGiLLster

    DerGiLLster Member

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    -You gain the use of fuel to actually have some use to make an effort to stop the bombers instead of wasting it all into what was really no more than an airshow in terms of how ineffective the V-2 was.

    -In mid 44, the Germans even though it became clear they were on the losing streak, they still held their stability. So sending a allied jet into German territory would have been a risky thing to do. Even in March of 1945, although it was completely hopeless, a fleet of 37 Me 262s had versed against around 1200 bombers and around 600 fighters claiming 12 bombers a fighter while losing three of their own aircraft. Even that late in the war, the Germans still had some left in the air force to be considered a threat to the bombers.

    -There shouldn't have been any test programs after 1943. Testing an aircraft was a waste of what may have been used to improve the Me 262 and the factories. That along with the production of heavy tanks such as the Tiger II or the testing of the Maus aircraft. Such jets like the Arado 234 shouldn't have been used in combat at all considering the bombing runs by the allies of that same year and the ineffectiveness of the Blitz of 1940. It would have been a better decision to manufacture all the supposed Arado bombers into Me 262s. That is if the Me 262 had been intended to be used in its role of an interceptor.

    -Misleading? How so? The planes at pearl harbor had dealt with mostly dive bombers which are easy meat for fighters considering their design produces less speed and maneuverability.

    -It would be preferable to have pilots in a Me 262 than an experimental Me 163, He 162, Do 335 or the Ta 152. Those aircraft were being experimented in a situation where after late 1943 testing would not have done any good, and had less testing than that of the Me 262, which was tested earlier the year before. They shouldn't have done so many tests. After that year, they should have chose to refine, improve and mass produce the one that had given them the most promise. The assumption Roy Fedden is making is if the war had continued into 46 based on the number of units produced in the late months of the war.

    -The resources the allies ever wasted was anti-aircraft artillery and and fighters flying over the bay to intercept the flying bombs. Meanwhile, the Allies would waste waste more fuel and steel for their fighters and bombers against a larger fleet of Me 262s. Considering that a loss of several shops or homes was not as big of a loss as bomber or fighter as their construction took more time, resources and money. I am aware that the allies had an abundance but it doesn't mean there could not have been a difference to prolong the Defense of the Reich. Bombers were still flying over Berlin with V-1s vice versa to London. The V-1 did not cause any problems with the military operations of Germany, while the Me 262s would have put out more obstacles to the bombings. A better use of resources IMO.
     
  9. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your first paragraph. I'd agree the V-2 was something of a waste but not sure that the resources involved would have made much impact on the Me-262 program.

    In 44 sending a plane of any type over German airspace involved some risk. The Germans needed an exchange ratio of 4:1 or greater to have any real impact on the war though committing allied jets would have helped make sure they didn't reach that ratio. The problem with the Me-262 is that Germany simply couldn't support it in the numbers needed to make a difference and even if they could have the allies had counters.

    Test programs don't really take up that much in the way of resources and sometimes you gain valuable information that lets you upgrade current equipment. Then there's the issue of whether cancelling all the test programs implies that you have lost the war. If you have taken that logical step then why not just come to terms and end the war ...

    I thought the Arado's did a very good job as recon planes. German intel sources were already pretty limited loosing your most dependable recon plane is of questionable merit IMO. Interestingly enough the Jumos were significantly more reliable in the Arados from what I've read.

    The planes at PH were not mostly dive bombers. The first wave had 40 torpedo bombers, 54 dive bombers, and 95 fighters. The second wave was approximately half fighters and half bombers. However the point was that if you just look at the relative capabilities of the planes and the pilots one would not expect a favorable loss exchange ratio for the USAAF fighters that managed to get airborne (especially considering some did so short ammo and with their fields under attack). Likewise the initial combat flights of the Me-262 could be expected to produce results that would not be sustainable in the long run.

    As for Fedden's estimates if the assumptions are just what you stated then they are clearly divorced from reality. Even if the Germans could have produced that many Me-262 they couldn't have gotten anywhere near that many operational or kept them that way. It's worth noting for instance that over 25% of the aircraft lost by the US during WWII were lost over the US (i.e. mostly training accidents) and that operational losses were usually about equal to losses due to enemy action by most air forces during the war. Now take a hard to fly failure prone aircraft like the Me-262 and give it to a bunch of green pilots and you have a prescription for disaster.

    The question becomes who's wasting a greater percentage of their critical resources. A jet engine burns about twice as much fuel as a piston engine and the Me-262 had two which implies it's using about as much fuel as 4 piston engines. Then there's the extra labor of keeping it running and the resources devoted to that task (especially important when you consider the transportation network was failing late in the war). It's possible that there may have been some merit to assigning a few really good pilots to the Me-262s but I suspect shifting over to mostly Me-262s would actually have made Germanys position weaker.
     
  10. DerGiLLster

    DerGiLLster Member

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    I am saying that had the fuel and slave labor be used toward jet engines, it would have served a better purpose as a V-2 rocket killed only about 2-3 civilians on average of all the rockets fired. A Me 262 would have been able to down 2-3 bombers on average.

    If more attention had been put into it, not the V-weapons or the heavy tank designs, than the allies would have faced more hassle in the air. Also again as I stated earlier, a pilot shot down in Germany could almost not get back into action, unlike a German pilot, which could parachute back into German territory and fight again.

    They should have focused on the few test programs they were doing. Since the Me 262 wasn't combat ready, they should have continually tested it for improvement. Just get all the unnecessary test programs out of the way, or at the least narrow them down to the ones worth testing, not have them all tested.

    The Me 262 had a recon plane in use, so there was no need for a Arado 234, considering is was slower, and took much more fuel. The Me 262 could have been able to swoop down and recon at lower altitudes since it was more versatile than the Arado, thus taking taking better photos for reconnaissance, and being less likely to be shot down than than the slower and bigger Arado Ar 234.

    Well then in that case, the cause was because the Japanese pilots had believed that all the planes were destroyed. They didn't assume that any planes got off the ground and were taken back by shock for seeing the aircraft up in the air, thinking any planes in the sky were their own. That event was more of an element of surprise for the Japanese as the fighters weren't really expecting to see any planes airborne since they believed they had effectively destroyed them on the ground. In the case of the Me 262s, the Germans would be expecting the Allies always in the years 1943/1944 and along with more focus into the Me 262 program while diverting away attention from the other programs, then the Me 262 would be able to annoy the bombers for much longer periods of time and no allied jet would dare fly over Germany until a stronghold had at least established by the land invasions.

    The Germans late in the war had manufactured planes such as the He 162 without even testing them. Sending a Me 262 into the air, which was at least better tested and had greater recognition than the He 162. If they had sent planes such as the He 162 which was barely tested at the level of the Me 262, then sending a Me 262 in the air would have been a better gamble for Germany.

    Yes, the jets engines do waste more fuel, but they had a speed advantage and being able to fend off more bombers would have caused ease on Germany's refineries and industries during the war giving them more resources to resist the allies. The Me 262s gave the bombers a headache while the piston engine fighters did not do so much as they crews flying the bombers felt safe with the P-51D Mustangs chasing off the piston engine fighters. Not saying it would be huge, but any save is worth it for this situation of total war. Putting pilots in an aircraft that they knew would have definitely given the pilots higher moral as they believed they would much harder to intercept, and would solidified Germany's position as fierce resistor in the skies.
     
  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Again it's not at all clear that the resources from the V-2 program would have helped much. Germany might have been able to produce more Me-262s but then Germany produced quite a few Me-262s that never saw service so what good is it to have more planes sitting on the ground?

    One problem with test programs is that it can be very difficult to tell which will be productive and which won't. Saying that one that wasn't productive after the fact is rather questionable unless it is should have been clear from the beginning that that was the case.

    You need to look at more factors with regards to recon planes. PLS note for instance that the Arado has just about twice the range of the Me-262.

    The comparison to PH was pointing out that the Japanese weren't really prepared for the little air to air opposition they encountered just like the allied bombers weren't prepared (at least initially) for the jets.

    There is simply nothing to indicated that the Me-262 could have been operational in 43 in any significant numbers. Nor is it clear that if they saw it as a requirement that the allies would not have flown their jets over German territory.

    Piston fighters did indeed cause considerable "discomfort" to the allied bombers. The question then becomes how many do you have to trade off for jets before you reach the breakeven point. It's pretty clear that the Germans could keep significantly more than 2 piston fighters flying for each jet. Indeed the they probably could have kept more than 4 flying for each jet. At what point does the conversion to jets become a loosing proposition? I can't say for sure but my impression is that the Me-262 never reached the point where a mass conversion would have been of benefit to Nazi Germany and further more that they had no prospect of reaching that point with or without the resources of the V-2 program and/or other test programs.
     
  12. DerGiLLster

    DerGiLLster Member

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    -Well considering that of the 5,000 V-2s that were constructed during the war, 12,000 laborers died making those V-2's. Those laborers could have used the metal for anti-aircraft artillery(there was a method where lines of 20mm cannons were used as defense for the Me 262s against the Hawker Tempests, the British had to cancel their rat scramble after this proved successful) and the process of the fuel for the V-2 could have been replaced by creating the synthetic J-2 fuel for the Me 262. The Germans had plenty of Me 262s. I am aware the problem wasn't numbers but it was getting the fuel to get them in the air.

    -Germany was struggling with air supremacy in late 1943, any planes that have already been proven and tested would be the out most answer, the Germans really sometimes weren't putting any thought when testing their projects, take for example the Maus super heavy tank along with the Wasserfall air-to-air rocket.

    -So you're saying the Me 262 couldn't have been modified to take fuel tanks under the frame and/or the wings? It would save more time and metal to modify an existing plane than just create another airplane from scratch and give it the role. The Germans(concerning the high command) never saw the other potential roles it could have served.

    -Pearl Harbor was an attack on the offensive, so you're going to need more information with an attack rather than a defense. In Germany's case, there were on the defensive, so they had nothing to worry of for their jets, while the Allies still had some catching up to do with the range for their jets.

    -Germany should have tried to introduce the Me 262 as a night fighter in that year, with of course the best pilots, to at last showcase the strengths of the craft while protecting their design, being on safe territory if shot down, and confusing the Allies since it would be too fast and dark for them to even know how the plane had looked like. Also, why would the Allies have even flown their jets over Germany. I am aware that the Allies design was superior, but even then there jets had considerable issues, although not as bad or severe as the Germans. Sending Allied jets over Germany would have resulted in some being lost due to engine malfunctions, and of course being shot down. This would have given the Germans then the technology they needed to make their own efficient jets.

    -I believe the piston fighters in service(the Bf 109s and the Fw 190s) should have been used strictly for the role of fending off the allied fighters while the German jet fighters would have strictly been used against the role of bombers. The German piston fighters would have been better able to face off the allied piston fighters and conserve fuel without having heavy guns on board, while the Me 262s would be able to avoid conflict with the fighters and focus on destroying the bombers in the air. Germany should have halted production of the Bf 110 as a heavy fighter and attempt to introduce the Me 262 in this position, despite being in small numbers and still having numerous engine problems, they would have been able to be better off the bombers and escape than the heavy twin piston fighters which were slow and not as maneuverable as the single engined piston fighters, unlike the Me 262 which would have been able to keep their maneuverability at higher speeds and being hard to chase targets for the piston fighters.
    Also compared to production of piston engines, in this case the Daimler-Benz DB 601 took over 2,000 hours, the Junker Jumo 004 could have been assembled in under 400 hours. So the loss of a Bf 110 would have been over 4,000 hours of work on the engines while the loss of a Me 262 would have been under 800 hours of work on the engines. If they could introduce the Me 163 which could never have more than 10 minutes of fuel, and went way too fast to even sight on your target, and had the risk of exploding engines, then it would have been much better to have introduced a jet plane that was fast enough to actually sight your target, would have had engines that would have broke down every 30-40 minutes of operation at the worst, along with the fact that it had four cannons that would deliver 40 rounds combined in a second when only 3 or 4 rounds would have been needed bring down a bomber, which was greater the armament of a typical German piston fighter sent to intercept bombers.
     
  13. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    The use of resources from the V-2 project to increase production of AAA is a totally different matter than using it to affect Me-262 production.

    Germany was trying to prevent the allies from achieving air supremacy in 43 certainly for use in that year proven designs were the way to go but it was also clear that the proven designs weren't going to succeed so they had to work on new designs and ideas. The Me262 was one of those.

    I never said that the Me-262 couldn't be fitted with auxiliary tanks. Since the Arado design was already in the testing phase it's not clear that it would be easier or better to modify the Me-262 for recon than it was to sue the Arado though. The design of the Arado would likely have made it a better recon plane as well.

    As to my PH analogy you don't seam to get my point so no point in continuing in that regard.

    The Me 262 wasn't ready for introduction in 43 and it's use as a night fighter in that time frame would have been very questionable. Flying and in particular landing a night is enough of a problem doing so in a plane of questionable reliability introduces even more issues. Finding and engaging targets at night was also non trivial and flying at the speeds the Me262 did would have compounded this issue as well. The problem for the Germans reliability was from what I've read not so much a matter of technology but one of materials. They didn't have the alloys they needed. Captured allied aircraft my give them a clue as to better alloys but if they don't have the materials that isn't going to help.

    I'm not saying that the German selection of what weapons and planes to develop, test, and produce was anywhere near the optimum but in some cases there may have been practical reasons for their choices that are not immediately apparent and in some cases the lack of knowledge at the time may have suggested that multiple alternatives were the way to go.

    As for using the piston fighters exclusively against allied fighters that takes pressure off the bombers. Using the Me-262s exclusively against the bombers isn't something that the Germans can control either.

    My impression is that fuel isn't the only critical restraint on the LW in late WWII either. Pilots were another one all though the two were related.
     
  14. DerGiLLster

    DerGiLLster Member

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    -Well the reason I brought that matter up is because low altitude machine cannons such as the 2cm and 3.7cm cannons would be good for air defense for Me 262s taking off/landing since they were particularly vulnerable in that area.

    -Well the opinions of the test pilots,engineers along with testing Luftwaffe aces(notably Adolf Galland in this regard) might have changed the focus on the other projects, to shift toward the Me 262. The United States had paid more attention to their projects along with the pilots and engineers opinions, unlike Germany where only those in the political sphere could have influence in what was to be focused or what could be discarded.

    -Oh my fault for assuming there. I would say that if opinions had been listened to, then the work for a recon would switch to a Me 262, since it was at least known enough, and took less metals and fuel than the Arado 234.

    -Sorry about that. I didn't realize I wasn't getting at your Pearl Harbor analogy.

    -Well that is why I stated they use the best pilots of the war in order to have them for night-fighting. Instead of using night fighters on bulky twin engine piston planes, they would have high speed jets. The flying by the pilots would of course get some used to, but after some trial and error, the pilots would eventually would have been able to have used it to their advantage and have to face common flameout. Just as the Me 163 had issues with short fuel, well the Me 262s would have issues with flameouts, only difference is that the Me 262s would have been in the air several times longer than the Me 163s. The Germans will have to compromise and resort to using lower quality materials. This of course would result in shorter flight time and a higher amount of flameouts but at least the idea of jet fighters defending against bomber could have been somewhat of a reality.

    -Well consulting the opinions of the scientists, engineers and testers may have helped narrow it down somewhat. Political infighting was a common issue even in the very late months of the war.

    -Well I guess I should edit that statement and not have it where fighters are used exclusively against bombers. They would be of helpful aid to swooping Me 262s. Also why isn't something the Germans can't control either? Are you talking of the discipline of the pilots in those situations?
     
  15. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    In regards to night fighters. The most serious problem from what I've read for them was target acquisition. Flying fast doesn't help with that especially when you have to be close to acquire. Then there's the problem that if you are flying fast you may spot the bomber but loose sight of it before you can engage if you are flying really fast. Some very good night fighters weren't all that fast during WWII. So I'm not sure what you are buying when you use them in this way.

    The problem is the opponent can force engagements and/or their may be opportunities that present themselves that fall outside such a doctrine. Then there are problems like if the German piston engine fighters go after the allied fighters the numerical superiority of the latter is going to result in even greater attrition of German fighters. If the allies have a great enough superiority in fighters they can make it difficult for the jets to make their attack runs.
     
  16. RevBladeZ

    RevBladeZ New Member

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    How about Karl Gerät? 600mm mortar, useful only as psychological weapon.
     
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  17. DerGiLLster

    DerGiLLster Member

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    DEFINITELY. The fuel to fuel up one trip for that monster could have fueled and been used to make 10 Tiger tanks. Waste of resources. Don't know how I missed that.
     

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