Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

various discussions on Islam

Discussion in 'Non-World War 2 History' started by majorwoody10, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    ca.usa
    via TanksinWW2
    thats my point ricky , in most muslim countries , free and fair are pretty much oxymorons ,the notion of free thought and speech are not at all compatible with the haditha and the koran ... i can find the verses at robert spencers jihad watch but im afraid i dont no how to make them appear here .if anyone could help with posting of said material i would appreciate it
     
  2. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    ca.usa
    via TanksinWW2
    ok here are some numbers from the haditha ,koran ,whatever ...all about snuffin thy infidel . if anyone can post the text from thses book /verse thingys please do
    all in parenthesis ie .(2.216)
    61.12
    9.19
    4.85
    47.4 ...lots more im sure ,but we can start with these ,if you like ...
     
  3. Roel

    Roel New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    12,678
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    via TanksinWW2
    It should be noted that while large masses of people tend to be swayed by extreme points of view, the individual might not be so inclined. After the recent bombing in Algeria, a number of Muslims were interviewed by the Dutch news for comments, and they all said this kind of action was unforgiveable and un-Islamic. While the Dutch news might be accused of a vaguely left-leaning bias, there is still no denying that the opinion reported does exist among Muslims.
     
  4. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    ca.usa
    via TanksinWW2
    well ..its good to know that some muslims are against terror bombings , i guess
     
  5. Revere

    Revere New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Iowa, US
    via TanksinWW2
    yup and Bhutto just got shot and blown apart by a muslim , score for the freedom fighters.. :roll:
     
  6. Skua

    Skua New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    2,889
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Norway
    via TanksinWW2
    They're always against terror bombings when they are the targets. I wish we could have seen the same reactions amongst the general muslim population when non-muslims are targeted by terror bombings.
     
  7. Roel

    Roel New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    12,678
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    via TanksinWW2
    I wonder how well anti-Bush protest rallies are being reported in the Islamic world. I can imagine Muslims using Skua's argument to generalize about the West; if no one rises up to condemn wars started in the name of democracy so long as the enemy is not democratic, how can they know for sure that the general population of democratic states does not support such wars?

    Of course, a sizeable part of the population of Western countries does support wars like the one in Iraq, but that does not mean every Westerner is out for Muslim blood, does it?
     
  8. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    ca.usa
    via TanksinWW2
    nor does it mean that the war in iraq is about spilling muslim blood unless of course you are refering to the buckets of blood being spilled in the ongoing muslim on muslim celebration of islamic peacfulness .
     
  9. Revere

    Revere New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Iowa, US
    via TanksinWW2
    So to put it in their terms, I hate you and to show my dislike of you and your actions ill shoot my neighbor.....
     
  10. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kent, UK
    via TanksinWW2
    I've seen this argument crop up a few times before though, there are acts of terrorism around the globe happening all the time and how often do any of us (As a nation or grouping) hold rallies or make mass protests against groups that perpetrate attacks that do not affect us?

    This isn't specific to Islam or Muslims, it's just a general human trait. In Britain there was certainly a vocal minority that applaud Jihadist sentiments after the July 7th Tube bombings, however I also work with a fair number of Muslims all without exception openly deplore such sentiments.

    This is part of the issue at least, you wont see the views of the general community during any such events, just the more newsworthy, and unfortunately a single inflamatory speech from a radical cleric will sell far more papers than a hundred condemnations from moderates.
     
  11. Skua

    Skua New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    2,889
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Norway
    via TanksinWW2
    Yeah, I know some nice and peaceful Muslims, so Islam is ergo a peaceful and tolerant religion. I've seen that argument a few times as well.

    You fail to see the point. In Norway we have seen, several times, Norwegians rally against any unjustice made against people of other ethnic background by Norwegians. The only time I've seen Muslims rally against Islamic intolerance was when a handful of intellectuals from Turkey, Iran and Iraq protested against the attack on freedom of expression by political Islam. At the same time thousands of Muslims rallied against freedom of expression. Hundreds of angry Muslims took to the streets shouting slogans when the book 'Satanic Verses' was published in Norway, but not even one raised his voice when the publisher was gunned down on the street.

    I'm not to judge every single Muslim individual. Maybe more Muslims would speak up against the intolerant sides of Islam, just like Christians has protested the intolerant sides of Christianity, if they wouldn't be attacked from all sides, both from Muslim fundamentalists and the politically correct West which has victimized the Muslim population?

    It takes a whole lot more guts to speak up against Islam than any other religion or ideology, even in peaceful Norway, and it's no less dangerous if you're a Muslim.
     
  12. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    ca.usa
    via TanksinWW2
    the koran preaches intolerance and subjigation or death to infidels .this a fact .muslims are be definition devout and there is no changing or editing of the texts .you can not be a sort of muslim part time .

    islam was spread by the sword and if you are a good muslim you are duty bound to continue the spread of islam and this is not done by sending missionaries with food and medicine ,muslims are also intolerant and violent towards the wrong kind of muslim , ie iraq after the fall of the iraqui tito .

    if a muslim wishes to denouce religious war and subjigation the he is by definition a heritic .the sad fact is ,osamma and his cronies are GOOD muslims doing as they are instructed to do , by god , whats more they will quote it to you chapter and verse.this is also why european and us born muslims are easy to recruit as turncoats and terrorists , they merley have to study their own book . the direct orders from god are plain to see.

    thus sadly ,jihad and terror are not ever going to be reasoned away ,the word of god must be changed (sorry ,not an option ) or islam itself will have to be expunged ,or we can all become muslims .

    i am well aware that no muslim army can conquer the west ,this is not the issue .the issue is a islamic europe under shaira law in a few decades and the threat of wmds in the hands of those who embrace a martyrs death . this war is going to continue forever .they are not going to change unless they change the text and they will never do this .and even so called secular muslim nations are beset always by homegrown fundimental revivalists .ie. pakistan ,iraq ,turkey ,iran ,afganistan ,chechneya .

    this is also why the millions of muslims who live in europe ,the usa and the uk , do not stand up and denounce the terror bombings ,they know in their hearts the terrorists are justified .they are against the war on terror and against terrorist bombings aimed at them ,but when it comes to infidels ...well its no big deal to them .
     
  13. Roel

    Roel New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    12,678
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    via TanksinWW2
    That is simply ridiculous, dangerous nonsense. If you honestly believe that every Muslim is convinced, deep down inside, that all infidels deserve to die, then you seriously need to go out and meet some actual Muslims.

    Of course, the Koran is hardly a peaceful work of theology, but then again, neither is the Old Testament. As a rule, factions within a religious population that take their holy book too seriously become dangerous, oppressive and extremist; this goes for Christian factions as well as Muslim ones. Christians too have fought and killed each other at times in the past. Does this mean all Christians are murderous scum, a threat to the very fabric of our civilization? Of course it doesn't, because it's always a small minority that engages in bouts of outright madness whereas the opinion of the majority tends to be a lot more moderate.

    This moderate opinion itself is often derived from the gist of most religious works, the heart of their doctrines: that people should strive to live a good life. Muslims openly condemn fundamentalist terrorists who claim to represent their religion, because they know very well that the Koran does not advocate murder, especially not the murder of other Muslims. Their voices are drowned out by the fundamentalists but we cannot allow that to happen; by taking the fundamentalist line of reasoning as the ony one, drowning out the moderates is exactly what you, Majorwoody, are doing.

    In fact, succesful religious conversion is almost always a peaceful process; it's nigh impossible to force someone to believe something. Some kind of benefit has to be connected to the conversion, be it acceptance in a social group, the promise of an afterlife, or even simple tax benefits. It is these very advantages that early Muslims used to spread their religion. What they spread by the sword was their state, their political dominance; the actual spread of Islam was mostly a matter of marginalizing other religions while offering benefits to converts. It was never, as in the case of Roman paganism or early Christianity, a matter of "believe what we tell you or die".
     
  14. Skua

    Skua New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    2,889
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Norway
    via TanksinWW2
    That last claim, Roel, is just not true. Even to this day are religious minorities exposed to violence and threaths in every Muslim country with the possible exception of Iran ( of all countries ). The trademark of the politically correct are that they can't even admit to what the Muslims themselves admit to.

    Even the fairly secular Tunisia has problems with violence against non-Muslims and admits to it in the sence that the problem is addressed politically. Human rights organisations in Egypt, which involves Muslims and would not be possible without the involvement of Muslims simply because a purely non-Muslim organisation would not survive for long in Egypt, fights for the rights of the Coptic minority which through history has suffered and still suffers from forced convertions to Islam.

    The secular muslim has in other words no problem with admitting to the violent nature of Islam, the politically correct can't even turn the same light on Islam as they can on every other religion and as a consequense supports the fundamentalists of Islam.

    Those who opposed the critics of the Christian church claimed that the critics were dangerous as well. I object to any institution being protected from critisism because that is the really dangerous path.
     
  15. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    ca.usa
    via TanksinWW2
    islamic texts are full of admonitions to slay ,rob ,enslave or convert non muslims and as skua says ,moderate muslims do not deny this . in fact ,roel , you are the first person ive ever heard claim that the koran does not advocate the murder or infidels .

    the problem fo moderatse muslims and for us too is that , unlike the bible the koran is strictly forbidden to be modernized or made more p.c.

    the bible in pre civil war america was full of admonitions for the slave to be obedient to his master and the master to be fair and humane to his slave ect . pro slavery advocates in anti bellum america used the bible as tool to argue that slavery was acceptable and even legitimate .in bibles printed post 1865 (union victory and emancepation ) in the usa , the word slave was changed to servant .this kind of editing is strictly forbidden by the word of the prophet and hence by god .

    iran very much officially persecutes a minority of about 300000 people of the baha,i faith .iranian christians ,jews and hindus are not officially persecuted but are made to feel very unwelcome in a thousand suble ways .being of a religious minorty in any muslim coutry is a dicey and precarious existance .

    a recent poll conducted by an european news group found that in muslim countries polled ,almost 50% of people supported and admired osama bin ladin . some other polls have indicated only 30 % either way thats a lot of muslims who openly support the murder of ordinary american civillians .

    as for me personally drowning out the voice of moderate muslims , well ok roel , you got me ...its true , i have great majical powers which i use in a diabolical way to keep all moderate , tolerant and peace loveing muslims from speaking out ...i am paid huge sums of money by sharp official looking dudes wearing black suites . im not sure where they come from but they have short haircuts ,lotsa radio thingys and mac 10s under their armpits and they always arrive in a bunch of large shiney black helicoters .


    i confess its getting harder and harder for me to stifle these hundreds of millions of moderate muslim voices . their numbers are swelling so fast that i am hardly able to contain them .


    mass mind control is not as easy as you all might think , when the dam bursts ,muslims everywhere will pass out flowers and stage huge outdoor sit ins where they sing joan baez songs and hold hands and protest all terrorism and violence , damn them !

    ...still one does what one can ,for now ...
     
  16. Roel

    Roel New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    12,678
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    via TanksinWW2
    You're both raising some good points, but you're also twisting my words more than once. I never intended to safeguard any institution from criticism, just from bigotry - and I certainly do not support fundamentalist islam. My own points about Christianity do not serve to criticize that religion so much as to show that this praised foundation of Western civilization is itself not innocent of the crimes it now accuses Islam of, yet people in the West would not be so quick to blame Christians of bloodlust. The followers of this fundamentally intolerant and judgmental religion tend to live peaceful, normal lives too.

    Skua, I know you want to put me in the crowd of the politically correct stereotype, but in all fairness I do not care about their opinion; I have not reached mine through the consideration of what is and is not "proper". I do believe it is dangerous to propagate the idea that Muslims are out to kill us all, but that is simply because I believe the default hatred and distrust of any individual simply because of the group he belongs to is never a rational path to follow. Now, is this political correctness or is it merely humanity?

    The reason why, at least in my view, Muslims should not be thought of as pathologically malevolent, is indeed the very thing I just said, which you discarded as "the usual argument": the Muslims you meet in daily life are just normal people, who mean me, an infidel, no harm. I don't understand how you can dismiss this argument so easily, because it is a watertight falsification of the theory that Islam is evil in nature.

    It is true that in recent times many Muslim regimes have become more radical, more fundamentalist, and more hostile towards other religious groups. Perhaps I should not have used the word "never" in my previous post. However, the point I was making there was in response to Woody's claim that Islam had been spread by the sword from the very start, which is blatantly untrue.

    Also, I certainly wasn't the one to suggest that majorwoody is involved in some kind of shady conspiracy, as he himself sarcastically offers. :grin:

    Neither did I say that the Koran "does not advocate the murder of infidels", I said it does not advocate murder as such. Like all religious books it directs its moral code at its believers and discards all non-believers as "outsiders" for whom no rules apply. There is no reason to single out the Koran on this issue other than the fact that it is, indeed, not allowed to adapt the book for our time - but then again, there are people who still hold on to the Bible's every word despite the fact that it was written thousands of years ago, in a culture where the words "prophet" and "son of god" were considered synonymous. Besides, isn't the scrapping of the word "slave" from the Bible a result of the very same political correctness you are up in arms against?

    I've searched the internet for the poll you mentioned, but the only one I could find that gave the numbers you posted was conducted by Al Jazeera. Not a European news group and certainly not an independent source. However, several Western news sources report a poll conducted in mid-2005 by an independent American agency that showed Muslim support for Bin Laden decreasing significantly.
     
  17. Skua

    Skua New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    2,889
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Norway
    via TanksinWW2
    You show your politically correct fundamentation by writing something like this fundamentally intolerant and judgmental religion about Christianity while going into a frency when someone writes something similar about Islam. I did not write that you deliberately support fundamentalists, but by trying to label critisism of Islam as something ''dirty'' or ''dangerous'' you are certainly serving their purpose.

    But what on earth has Christianity to do with critisism of Islam, Roel?

    I critisize the Church whenever I feel they are doing unjustice. And I can do that without having to fear someone calling me christianophobic or dangerous, no matter how ridiculous or bigotted my critisism gets. And, more to the matter, I can critisize Christianity without someone always bringing up how bad some other religion were. I don't care how awful Christianity was at some point, though the position of Christianity being just as bad as Islam has its fundament in an eurocentric view on history, Christians are rarely any problem today, and one can without fear address the relatively minor issues left to fix.

    The Bible has some verses which encourages violence and opression as well, but Christians and Jews are for some reason not nearly as violent and oppressive as Muslims. Maybe the answer is that the rather ridiculous view that all religions are in principle the same is not true?

    Now, who's twisting the words of others? Writing that Islam is a dangerous ideology which advocates violence against non-Muslims is not the same as writing that all muslims are out to kill us. Some Muslims are more religious than other, and some choose a more peaceful way than others. Just like some people are more influenced by political correctness than others. In some cases I even take the polically correct stand myself.

    I would say that your view is at least not based on the principle that all matters should be judged by the same standard and not being excused because something else is equally bad. I have no idea on what grounds you have reached your point of view in this matter, Roel, but it does have a distinct flair of political correctness. Either way it is not humanity to meet intolerance with tolerance.

    Even the most fundamentalistic Muslim is peaceful and normal as long as you don't offend him. The problem is that Muslims are very easy to offend, even up to the point where just being a non-Muslim is offending. Islam is maybe not ''evil in nature'', but the fundament of islam is submission which is not a very nice ethic stand.

    Read the Quran, Roel! Muhammed himself was a warlord, spreading Islam by the sword. Not many Muslims deny that, though they often excuse it as something done out of necessity and blame others, but you call it a lie. If that is not politically correct, then what is.
     
  18. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    11,708
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Luton, UK
    via TanksinWW2
    Tsk tsk Roel, you are now leaving yourself wide open to criticism of your perception of Christianity :wink:

    Should read "was not innocent" - I can't remember the last time a leader of the Christian Church preached hatred and bloodlust. :wink:
    I'm sure we have had this discussion before - the Church's crimes are mostly in the past, and were due to people misusing the religion for political reasons.
    Individual 'Christians' however, still manage to be suprisingly bloodthirsty and intolerant. :(

    Um, are you sure that a religion that is summed up by its God as "To love him [God] with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself" is 'fundamentally intolerant and judmental'? If you are going to quibble over 'neighbour' then remember the definition given in the Bible. Also bear in mind Matthew 7 v1...

    All religious books? When did you last read your Bible?
    When did you last consider the fact that Jesus deliberately ministered to people who were not Jewish, and specifically instructed his disciples to do the same?

    Wrong! 'Prophet' and 'Son of God' are & were entirely seperate things. Zephaniah was a Prophet, but not the Son of God. Are you confusing Chritianity with Islam, who hold Jesus to be a Prophet and nothing more?
     
  19. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    11,708
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Luton, UK
    via TanksinWW2
    Hmmm... upon reflection I may have fallen into Roel's trap. After all, Christianity (a religion based upon loving thy neighbour as thyself) can be (and repeatedly has been) interpreted as a religion of intolerance and hatred.

    Interesting parallel...
     
  20. Roel

    Roel New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    12,678
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    via TanksinWW2
    There is a distinct difference between criticizing a religion and declaring all of its followers a threat to civilization. I think I am arguing much more against Majorwoody than against you in this case. As far as I'm concerned, there is no reason to deny the violent passages in the Koran, but I do feel a need to underline the fact that the foundations of other religions contain equally violent subject matter, while their followers are not currently being declared enemies of civilization. Christianity gets singled out in this only because it is the religion I know more about than others.

    Please note that I have not said anywhere that the Koran is in fact a book of peace, or that Islam itself is a religion of peace. In fact I have conceded all the points you've made about the Koran itself being full of violent passages. My point, and the reason why I'm dragging Christianity into this whole debate, is that just because a religion's foundation is or might be taken as violent, that doesn't mean the common follower of such a religion is dangerous. To think so is to promote bias and polarization; it is not helpful in any way.

    My entire argument has been that it is dangerous to consider any Muslim automatically untrustworthy and evil simply because he is a Muslim. My reasoning is that there is no direct correlation between the text of the Koran and the daily life of a Muslim.

    Neither is my point one of cultural or religious relativism... Of course, not all religions are the same. The point I am making is not that Christian culture calling Islamic culture evil is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Once again, what I'm saying is that despite the violent passages in the Bible, Ricky is probably the most openly harmless person I know. As far as I'm concerned, no believer of any faith should be considered evil by default, no matter the history or foundations of his religion, because the individual and the institution are two distinctly different things.

    Naturally. However, the latter is certainly the gist of Woody's message.

    Interestingly, it seems to me like I am the one judging all followers of the religions under discussion by the same standard. Since you are arguing against Islam itself, rather than against Muslims, I have no real reason to disagree with your point of view (which is why I conceded most of what you said in my previous post).

    Of course, there's no more I can say in my own defence than what I've already said: my opinion has nothing to do with political correctness. If anything, it is somewhat politically incorrect; I tend to criticize Christian fundamentalism much more aggressively than what could be considered the PC norm. This is because the archaic and anachronistic values of fundamentalist Christians are actually the foundation of the government of the Netherlands at the moment, making them a much more direct influence on my life than Muslim fundamentalism.

    Meeting intolerance with tolerance is therefore not what I am doing; I am meeting the intolerance of Christian moral crusading with intolerance, while meeting the tolerance of Muslims I meet in daily life with a similar degree of tolerance. Meanwhile, you seem to be advocating the universal judgment of Muslims by the religion they follow, by proclaiming that my attitude towards them is the equivalent of meeting intolerance with tolerance.

    The fundament of Islam may be submission (as it is in practice with Christians, once again), but what is the fundament by which the average Muslim lives his life? What I've been saying this whole time is that there is little you can say about a random Muslim by examining his religion and judging that. I for one have never offended one personally.

    I'd say reading the Koran for information about the history of Islam would be a pretty touchy way of going about it :wink:

    Of course, Mohammed was a warlord, and the generation that followed him expanded the Arabian empire even further. I'm not denying that. What I am denying is the idea that a country conquered by Muslims was somehow magically (or violently) transformed into a Muslim country overnight. The Arab invaders made up the elite of the population in the lands they conquered, after which the conversion of the general population was a slow and not generally too violent process. The fact that there are still Christians in Egypt nowadays should speak for itself, no matter how difficult their life has become now that Islam is radicalizing.
     

Share This Page