Victims of the Malmedy Massacre

I think it belongs in this thread, as we seem to be revisiting similar circumstances...and the parent unit involved...

May 28: 7th Co, II Battalion, Regt. ?, LAH massacres 65 (80?) British POWs from the 48th Division at Wormhout near Dunkirk, France. Wilhelm Mohnke is implicated as the officer who gave the execution order. Divisional CO Dietrich is cleared of any involvement in the war crime, as he spent the entire day pinned down in a ditch after troops of the British Gloucestershire Regiment shot up his staff car!

Warwicks and Cheshires together with IF I remember correctly some RA...put up a spirited fight, forced to surrender, original troops took them prisoner and moved on, they were killed by follow up troopers, some reports state that the German troops believed the Brits had used dum dum ammunition in their action.

There were survivors, some including a wounded soldier from original action crawled to nearby pond.

There was a good report I beleive in THEIR FINEST HOUR, think that was the best report I read on it, Ill check, if it was that book then there is a description by German soldier who passed the British prisoners and realised on seeing them what was about to happen, and explained he saw some of the British troops begging for their lives with the same realisation, he left the scene before the act, ill try and find that, with all the stuff I have dont keep too much of a filing system of any sort but will come back on it.

 

Agree Bish, fully, Im just saying how I think I would have reacted and admit I would have been aw wrong as those yanks to have done so, but I just cannot guarantee I wouldnt have done it, I hope not.

And yes those guards were at the low end of the food chain, and possibly not even German..

But a question Ill ask you mate, your in Bosnia, Nato has set up a camp for Serbs (ok youve got to give a lot of leeway to this....not a serious anology,,,) your the lowest part of the food chain, your guading the main gate, you know the Serbs, Croats, or Chinese are being more than mistreated in there...Youve seen the civilians, men women and children in there and the first battalion of the mismartian people guard regiment randomly killing and people starving to death...Age old question....are you happy to stay on the gate?

Bit like the traffic warden I suppose...someone has to do it, but does it have to be me, no matter what, I would hope I would make sure I wasnt there after the first day.

On totally different topic I suppose and Ill shut up after this one, but similar thing, now I know in Jersey and Guernsey during the German occupation, someone had to wear the British policemans uniform etc even at the risk of being seen as collaborating in certain issues.....But does it have to be me even if I was that policeman before occupation, like the camp guards, Id hope id have the strengh to make sure it was not me. The tower guards were unlucky perhaps wrong time wrong place, but unless they even for a day walked round with blindfolds on then it was a mistake for them to offer themselves as targets for the relieving yanks when it must have been obvious others had fled...

Still now excuse for killing them, but as I said before, I dont know what emotions the yanks suddenly went through on walking through those gates...

 

Heres more on the German version.

The story was corroborated by: Unterscharfuhrer von Chamier.

As the shots were being fired, there were many Panzers from the 7th Panzer Company driving around or cutting the corner at the crossroads to continue South on N23.

Untersturmfuhrer Heinz Rehagel, Platoon Leader of 1st Platoon, 7th Panzer Kompanie, was the CO of Panzer # 711. Panzer #711 arrived at the crossroads, turned left, and drove South at about 5 miles-per-hour. Rehagel saw in a field further to the South--American POWs standing with their hands raised. Rehagel said he recieved a direct order and fired 20-30 rounds at the POWS with the hatch machinegun.

He fired low bursts at the POWS and some dropped to the ground. He fired into the few that remained standing until they all dropped.

Oberscharfuhrer Roman Clotten, was CO of Panzer #723, fired at targest of approximately 300 yards before the crossroads at Baugnez. Hauptscharfuhrer Hans Siptrott
was in the Panzer in front of him as they slowly proceeded to the crossroads. When they turned the corner to head Sounth on N23, Clotten saw American POWs lined up close together in the field on the right side (west) of the road. 8 SS men wearing the gray-green uniforms, were standing in front of them. Clotten believed that they came from two SPWs parked there. The firing began when Clotten reached the hard surfaced road, N23 and headed South. Clotten believed that the first shots came from them 8 SS men in the gray-green uniforms.

After the first shots, the Americans fell to the ground. Immediately after the first shots--appx 4 of the SS men returned to their SPWs./B] The ones who remained continued to fire on the Americans. As the POWS were killed, Clotten and Siptrott, continued to move South very slowly (at a walking pace), along with the other advancing Panzers.

About 20 yards from the southern edge of where the POWs were lying, Clotten stopped his Panzer because all the Panzers came to a halt. Siptrott was standing in his turret about 20 to 30 yards in front of him. Unterscharfuhrer Erich Dubbert, CO Panzer #713, & Oberscharfuhrer Werner Koch, CO Panzer #112, stopped behind him while Panzer #734 driven by Manfred Thorn, was 30-40 yards in front of Siptrott near a house.

As soon as Clottens Panzer stopped, the gunner, Sturmmann Herman Bock reached for a pistol and stood up on the Panzer. He then turned right and fired several shots at the POWs. When he stopped firing--other Panzers continued to fire. Just before they moved out Clotten remembered two men one of whom was Obersturmfuhrer Rumpf who was walking toward the Panzers fro the direction of the field.

Clotten stayed there for a few minutes before continuing South.

Hauptscharfuhrer Hans Siptrott, Co of Panzer # 731 and his loader, Sturmann Georg Fleps, gave pre-trial statements that Beutner ordered them to stop and turn their cannon onto the POWS. Siptrott said he did not have enough ammo and continued to keep Panzer #731 moving slowly Southwards.

However, when he turned around, he saw Fleps sitting in the loaders seat with a pistol in his hand. Siptrott permitted Fleps to shoot because their Company Commander had made a speech on December 16th stating that they were not to take prisoners. When they were about 30 yards away from the POWS, Siptrott told Fleps to shoot since it was within the scope of their Commanders orders. Fleps fired two shots at the POWs and he saw one fall to the ground.

(((More)))) on Monday.

 

That may have once been the case, but no longer:

Newsday, Putin Praises Former Soviet Partisan, January 3, 2003

The Guardian, Where Nazis are heroes, March 13, 2000

The Weekly Crier, News highlights from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, News Highlights from December 18-December 25, 2000

[ 20. August 2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]

 

Bish, some of your own guys went through similar incidents as you probably know, see it fitting to mention those guys in rememberance too....

Towards the end of May 1940 the 2nd Bn of The Royal Norfolk Regiment were stubbornly holding Le Paradis and the neighbouring hamlets of Le-Cornet Malo and Riez-du-Vinage against overwhelmingly superior forces, trying to block the enemy's road to Dunkirk. On May 27th, their ammunition expended, and completely cut off from their Bn and Bde HQ, 97 officers and men of 2 R Norfolk surrendered to No 4 Coy of the 1st Bn of the 2nd SS Totenkopf (Deathshead) Regt. They were disarmed, marched into a field, mowed down by machine-guns, finished off by revolver shots and bayonet thrusts and left for dead.

By a miracle, two of them, Bill O'Callaghan and Bert Pooley, escaped death, hid in the neighbouring farm of Madame Duquenne-Creton. At great risk to herself, the brave Frenchwoman cared for and fed the 2 injured men. But Bert's leg wounds were severe so they gave themselves up and became prisoners of war, Bert being repatriated in 1943. His story of the massacre was not believed but in 1946 he returned to Le Paradis and set in motion the wheels of justice which, on 28 Jan 1949, brought to the gallows the German officer who gave the command for this massacre, Fritz Knoechein.

 

To be honest, until now I dindnt actually know the numbers of guards that were killed on the relief of Dachau, like all things we have our own favourite areas of the war...But on looking into this further..Im amazed by what I have found...Im sitting here thinking we are talkin a handful of guys, but it turns out it was hundreds??

One site I have found but like all sites without comparing with others and the written word I wont idly accept it, but has the amount of men killed and by whom....with pictures...This is obviously something I had not considered before to be this big...And ok Bish, it does actually make me rethink a few things...What happened to any guards if any were around when the Brits entered Belsen, did we do similar?

Im glad I found this place makes you challenge previous accepted thoughts and facts..

 

Thanks urgh. I was going to mention the Norfolks, but as i don't have the details at hand, i was going to wait.

Thanks again

 

Carl, whats the source for the above German version on what happened? It seems to me it is mainly based on the Schwäbisch Hall statements, this being the pre-trial statements which were aimed on getting confessions about the order that no POW should be made.

What makes me highly suspicious about this "order" is that LSSAH took over 600 prisoners of which the ones at the Baugnez crossroads were killed. Together with other American claims for POWs killed by the LSSAH the number of those killed won't get above 100. If indeed all deliberately killed this is a horrible number, but still. If they had orders to make no prisoners, then why did the remaining 500+ stay alive and end up in German POW camps after been moved behind the German lines?

 

OK guys this thread is giving me a headache, but I am going to stick with it because I have invested lots of time on it,as have most of you!

What was the chain of command for the unit that killed the POW's and how did Pieper get involved in it if he was not in the area at the time ?

Also where would be a good site to read a "balanced" version of his life ? I did not know at the time the previous site I looked at was pro SS, but now I do. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

As the overall commander of the troops, he is responsable for their actions, even if he is not there. This should be accepted in any Army.

What he is in effect being punished for is a lack of control over his troops, and, more importantly, not dealing with them himself.

 

Yes, Bish. This is very true under all circumstances.

 

Hi Timo--Im getting "The German Version" from the book: "The Malmedy Massacre" written by John M. Bauserman. Apparently he has visited the sites and has done research on this tragedy for around 20 years. Supposedly I guess he might have possibly interviewed some German vets--but I think most of his info is from transcripts and avchives. I also know that he corresponded with and visited several American vets who were at Malmedy. I dont know how accurate anything here really is.

Ill be posting more tomorrow when I have more time.

Also--I have never heard of this author before buying his book--I bought it mainly because it lists the names to the men who were killed and also the names of some of the Germans--which I will also put down here somewhere.

 

Fleps statements continued.

Fleps supported Siptrotts tesitmony stating Panzer #731was at the head of the Platoon followed by Oberscharfuhrer Roman Clotton's Panzer. As the Panzers turned onto N23-- Fleps saw an SPW w/ its MG trained on the American POWs. The SPW's CO Beutner, approached Siptrott that he, Beutner had recieved orders from above, to kill the POWs. They continued South and Siptrott saw a pistol in Fleps hand, had placed his hand on Fleps shoulder and ordered him to shoot. Fleps fired at a POW and saw him fall. (((( These statements helped corroborate that most of the men in the SPWS, and Panzers, believed that the POWs were to be shot.))))

When Fleps fired, the 2nd Platoon, 3rd Panzer Pioneer Kompanie, prepared to fire. At the same time, the 9th Panzer Pioneers on the North side of the massacre field under Rumpfs command, also fired when he gave the order.
-------------------------------------------------
Whether Rumpfs order

 

Fleps statements continued.

Fleps supported Siptrotts tesitmony stating Panzer #731was at the head of the Platoon followed by Oberscharfuhrer Roman Clotton's Panzer. As the Panzers turned onto N23-- Fleps saw an SPW w/ its MG trained on the American POWs. The SPW's CO Beutner, approached Siptrott that he, Beutner had recieved orders from above, to kill the POWs. They continued South and Siptrott saw a pistol in Fleps hand, had placed his hand on Fleps shoulder and ordered him to shoot. Fleps fired at a POW and saw him fall. (((( These statements helped corroborate that most of the men in the SPWS, and Panzers, believed that the POWs were to be shot.))))

When Fleps fired, the 2nd Platoon, 3rd Panzer Pioneer Kompanie, prepared to fire. At the same time, the 9th Panzer Pioneers on the North side of the massacre field under Rumpfs command, also fired when he gave the order.
-------------------------------------------------
Whether Rumpfs order was the command that started it, no one will ever know. 70% of the survivors say a German on the North side of the field fired the first shots. About 2-3 minutes after the firing ceased, the remaining Panzers slowly moved through the area and headed towards Ligneuville.
-------------------------------------------------

Several members of the Pioneers gave evidence that Beutner ordered the POWS shot. Statements of Unterscharfuhrer Sepp Witkowski's SPW crew provided evidence that Beutner was one of the men who gave an order to: "Bump off the Prisoners." This evidence also implicated Rottenfuhrers: Ernst Goldschmidt and Max Hammerer from Beutners SPW. They initially fired from the vehicles that were directly in front of the POWs.

Sturmmann Joachim Hofmann, the driver of Witkowski's SPW, saw 80-100 captured Americans standing in a pasture located SOuth of a cafe and barn on the West side of the road. He saw a "Panther" and Beutners SPW there. As Hofmann passed Beutners SPW, Beutner told Hofmann's crew to get their machineguns readyto "Bump off" the prisoners. Hofmann stopped his vehicle and dismounted--taking up a position near the vehicles endalong with Sturmmann Gustav Neve. Hofmann had a machine pistol on his waist. Just before the shooting began, the crews of the nearby vehicles were shouting: "Bump them off, bump them off." Hofmann fired 4-5 bursts--about 30 shots, into the group of POWs, several of whom were Medics.

The American prisoners, unarmed and standing with their hands over their heads, were making no attempts at escaping. Hofmann said that Rottenfuhrer Ernst Goldschmidt got out of Beutners vehicle, and stood behind it with Hammerer and Beutner. When the order came to open fire, Hofmann saw both Goldschmidt and Hammerer fire their weapons.

))))More tomorrow((((

 

All very nice sources but all very much based on the "findings" of the American and Belgian prosecutors who tried to prove the alleged orders from LSSAH high command to shoot all prisoners. De decision for this was made under pressure from the home front, which wanted revenge and were hardly interested in the real killers.

</font>[/QUOTE]Riess basically uses many German post-war trails. He also notes that the U.S. trail was as "political" as all the other traile after it.

R. dismisses much of the later German accounts as being apologetic out of various reasons. I think it's understandable that those SS men who were involved in the massacres had a literally lethal interest in laying smokescreens.

Cheers,

 

Statements from Sturmmann Siegfried Jakel, Pioneers Heinz Stickel and Sturmmann Gustav Neve reinforce Hofmanns statement that Beutner gave the order to shoot. Sturmann Jakel arrived at the crossroads between 1-2pm Dec 17-1944. He saw 60-80 American POWS standing in the pasture on the right side of the road. An SPW belonging to Unterscharfuhrer Schuhmacher of 11th Panzergrenadiers was standing on the road and the cannon of his vehicle was pointed into this group. Jakel's SPW was driven by Hofmann, was stopped by Beutner just beyond the center of the pasture on the right side of the road.

Beutner then told Unterscharfuhrer Sepp Witkowski, that the American prisoners were going to be shot. Hearing these orders, the men in Witkowskis SPW loaded their weapons in preparation for firing into them. Jakel assisted by getting the front MG ready and served as a loader. Upon Beutners command to fire, members of the SPW's in the vacinity began to fire. Jakel fired appsx 75 rounds from the front MG, loaded it, and started firing into the American POWs.

Sturmmann Gustav Neve of Witkowskis SPW, arrived at the crossroads between 1-2pm and turned Left in the direction of Ligneuville. This is where he also saw from 80-100 US POWS standing in the field with their hands raised. Beutner ordered Neve to stop and ordered the crew to load their weapons. Neve dismounted while the rest loaded their weapons. Neve and Hofmann were standing to the rear of their SPW when the crews of the other vehicles cied out: "Bump them off, bump them off." Neve had a fast-firing rifle and Hofmann had his MP-38/40. and they both opened fire when everyone else did.

Sturmmann Heinz Stickel fired appx 50 rounds of ammo with his submachinegun, aiming at the heads of the POWs. He was sure he killed all the POWs he aimed at. When the firing stopped, there was a lull fo0r a few minutes while the Panzers continued Southward.

According to some American survivors: this was when the Germans came into the fields to kill the wounded POWs. The statements from Witkowskis crew confirm this and Jakel said he entered the pasture, where he shot at 4-5 wounded POWs with his pistol and fired 1 shot into the heart of each wounded man. After recieveing the orders, Hofmann moved into the field to remder "Mercy Shots" to those POWs still alive. He approached two POWs and fired 6-8 rounds into the head of each. Neve entered the pasture and fired a round into the heads of 8-10 POWs who were still twisting and turning on the ground.

()()More tomorrow()()

 

From the photo's I've looked at, and reports from men who escaped for the massacre, all of the verbage seems ludicrous to me. No matter what the poor guards were thinking, they shot unarmed men, who from photo's I've seen were not running away, but standing together to stay warm.

German troops were especially brutal to other races and nationalities because of there stupid evolutionary teaching , The Uberman Doctrine (Aryanism), inwhich everyone was inferior to them. This has not only happen to the German Wehrmache, but too any Army that feels superior to their enemy.

 

Great post and I agree with you on it. Ill try to post more later as soon as I can. Then when im finished with the German version-ill work on the American version.

 

No prove that they were "standing together to stay warm". What makes "reports from men who escaped for the massacre" more reliable than reports from Germans who were there?

Total nonsense.
"German troops were especially brutal to other races and nationalities because of there stupid evolutionary teaching".
No, just to other races (which was bad enough allready). There's absolutely nothing in the "Ubermensch Doctine" you mention, that makes Americans a legimite victim for Nazi followers. Whatever happened at the Baugneze crossroads has nothing to de with the racial aspects of Nazi Germany.