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What if Barbarossa was carried out this way?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Ironcross, Oct 26, 2006.

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  1. Roddoss72

    Roddoss72 Member

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    Well i would have attacked in this way

    Army Group North attacks through the Baltic States and with the Finnish army launch a direct assault on Leningrad and no besieging the city, once the city is secured and POW's are relocated to Germany then it would recommence it's offensive with a drove towards Moscow.

    Army Group Centre would have one objective and that is one major thrust towards Moscow.

    Army Group South would drive the the Donets basin in one thrust towards Stalingrad thus gaining a foothold on the western bank of the River Volga from just north of Stalingrad to Saratov in the North and with Army Group Antonescu launch a northern thrust on Stalingrad

    Army Group Antonescu would initially act as general reserve and provide security in the rear area for Army Group South but once Odessa is captured it would be the main thrust in the Crimea and once secured then from Kerch peninsula launch a drive towards the Maykop Oilfields and then onto Astrakhan securing the River Volga and then it would launch a southern thrust on Stalingrad

    Then after Stalingrad is secured Army Group Antonescu would push on towards Baku, while Army Groups North & South would launch twin drive to Gorki thus causing a large encirclement of Moscow this is in conjunction of a major central offensive on Moscow itself by Army Group Centre, while i would relocate as many troops i could spare from Norway to help with the Norwegians launch an attack on Murmansk, as the Finns drive towards Belomorsk for the Beloye More-Baltic. Canal also a nother drive towards the River Svir capturing Lakes Ladoga and Ozero.

    Once Moscow falls hopefully before the onst of winter and has the entire River Volga secured i would launch one more thrust towards with a very much bolstered Army Group North on Arkhangel'sk, and once Arkhangel'sk is secured then go onto the defensive.

    Not only that i would have begun a programme of recruitment from ethnic Baltic, Byelorussian and Ukrainian POW's i would give amnesty and set up ethnic based armies and incorporating them into the German Army, and allow the Baltic States, Byelorussia and Ukraine to set up Pro-Nazi self autonomous goverments and have them declare war on the Soviet Union and no sicherheideinst units.
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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  3. Roddoss72

    Roddoss72 Member

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    I read your reply and in my what if the Finns not only launch their invasion (which they did) but instead of stopping at the pre-war border they proceed to attack Leningrad with the help of Army Group North, there is bo besiegment of the city but an actual invasion of the city by the 16th, 18th Armies from the South and the Finns from the North while the panzers are kept out of the city to act as a ring of defense.

    But Hitler vasilated over Moscow, he had no clear idea on how to deal with the city, you should know that already, in my what if Hitler was doggedly determined to wipe out Moscow as quick as possible.

    In my what if partisans are dealt with one simple act of of using several Armies as follow-up security forces and unlike the blitzkrieg front, the reserve Armies advance very slow to secure the rear and this is in conjuction with the help of the newly liberated locals, who dont have to fear the Sicherheitdeinst as that was never deployed to wreak havok and fire up anti German resistence.

    What proof do you have that Stalin was well loved by the peasantry in places like the Baltic States, Byelorussia, Ukraine and Soviet occupied Finland, they hated him with a passion as he ran many pograms in those territories eliminating anyone who could pose a threat to him, he slaughtered millions prior to WWII.

    You mention Ivans fighting spirit then how did the Germans capture over 3 million of them in the first 6 months of the invasion, some fighting spirit.

    You again mention in a reply about efforts in recruitment, there was no effort to recruit anyone from the Baltic States, Byelorussia and the Ukraine as it was specifically forbidden by Hitler, Hitler did not want Untermensch as he saw them serving in the German Armed Forces he wanted them to starve to death, fancy an additional 2.5 million soldiers on your side and have 5 more allied nations to help in your war effort especially Byelorussian and Ukrainian industrial might arming you to the hilt and a vastly reduced lines of communication and supply lines.

    All the books i have read and doccos i have seen make mention that millions of POW's were ready to swap sides, and that the general population welcomed the German invader as liberators.

    Regards.
     
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    It is true the Finns stopped at the border instead of attacking Leningrad. Incredible but true. Mannerheim gave the order not to continue the attack there although in the North Karelia the troops went rather far behind the old border....

    Never did really find out what Hitler commented on the Finns not attacking Leningrad.
     
  5. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Did not say Stalin was loved in those countries.
    In fact it wasnt about love for Stalin but the hate for the Germans. In countries like Belarus and Ukraine entire vilages were wiped along with entire population amounting to millions.

    This was when the Soviets were cought completely of guard. Later in the war this was not the case, especially when the cruelties of the werhmacht were evident.

    Im afraid that you are mistaken, most of the contribution for the German war machine in the east came from the Baltic states. Latvia alone contributed 150,000 men to the Waffen SS, more then any other nation.

    http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/index2.htm

    Other Coutries like Lithuania and Estonia also played a role.

    Once again this is not the case. The Baltic states did welcome the Germans as liberators as a result of Soviet occupation 1 year earlier. Also a Small part of Ukraine did the same as a result of the famine caused by Stalin. Most however did not welcome the Germans, especially once the atrocities were evident. Belarus did not welcome them as liberators at all.
     
  6. Roddoss72

    Roddoss72 Member

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    Yes true about whole villages being wiped out but that was after the main body of troops went through and were welcomed as liberators then Sicherheitdienst followed up to inflict the attocities, in my timeline the SD was not deployed, this had the effect of eliminating the catalyst of anti German hatered.

    The Soviets were not caught off guard they had being warned at least three days before hand on when and where and by whom of Operation Barbarossa, it was Stalin who had convinced himself that Germany would not attack. Yes there were isolated incidents of cruelty by the Wehrmacht but overall their behaviour towards the locals was exemplatory.

    Ok i was wrong on the Baltic but imagine an extra the millions in Byelorussia and the Ukraine, not only the man power but the industrial capacity.
     
  7. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I am always amazed at how much credit is given to the so called " exemplatory " behavior of the Germans to the Soviets in WW2. This view always seems to be coming from the west, ( mainly the U.S. ) I only say this because I have had the luxury of attending to school in the states and have come across this baffeling view quite often. This however is NOT the case. War in the east was very different from the war in the west. A lot of Germans have also argued that the reason why the Soviets were treated sooooo poorly in the war is due to the fact that Stalin did not take part in the Geneva Convention. The Soviet population as a whole were considered sub-human and were treated only slightly better then a Jew.

    I challege you to provide a source for the so called " EXEMPLATORY " treatment of the Soviet soldiers or population, something tells me that you will not succeed. I am afraid that you are mistaken just as you were with the Baltic's.

    Also all one can do is ONLY imagine what an extra few million men might be able to do from Belarus or Ukraine. I have said this before and will say this again Roddoss72, the population of Belarus and most of Ukraine were LOYAL soviets. They might not have neccesarily liked Stalin but loved their country. For this reason millions were killed who did not fight for the Germans. In the case of Belarus, houndreds of thousand ran and hid in the woods and fought as partisans against the invader. [​IMG]
     
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