Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

What if the Me-262 was created earlier?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Terror of the Skies, Oct 13, 2007.

  1. YoungAirNut

    YoungAirNut Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    1
    In the bomber attack role, the Me-262 has one major advantage: it's speed! Dosent matter how you cut the cake, in order to beat an opponent you must be able to keep it in range. Statistics say that the Me-262 could reach about 878 Km/h which makes it a very useful weapon against the slow, bulky bombers. But again (I dont know how many times it has been said in this forum) the major problem for the plane was it's lack in numbers and capable pilots.

    But let's just imagine for a second that germany had been able to fix all the bugs and their numbers were as big as the Nazis would have wanted them to be! Entire squadrons of Me-262 could take off before the Alied bombers reached their destination and rain on them from above (or below, that is a possible tactic) and fire round after round into the poor slow bombers and then fly off so fast that the escort fighters would not be able to catch up. And if by any chance they would catch up, the Me-262 pilots could use their speed as an advantage to take out the piston fighters.

    So really, the Me-262 had potential to be a amasing war machine. Had it not been for all those silly bugs in the plane, the air would have been a very dangerous place for Alied pilots.
     
  2. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    5,945
    Likes Received:
    758
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona

    That's essentially what I did several posts ago. If you want to compare look at the rate of completion in the German aircraft industry for planes like the Ju 90, Ju 290, Fw 200, Me 264, He 177 or even the Do 217.
    These aircraft were turned out at a rate of just a few per month at most by their manufacturers. This tends to indicate the approximate level at which the German aircraft industry could turn out large twin and four engined heavy bomber aircraft. If we extrapolate from history they might have say, doubled or maybe even tripled production of these aircraft while halving or more production of other smaller ones.
    The result might be that the Germans produce about 8,000 heavy bombardment aircraft during the entire war while having their twin bomber production fall from about 30,000 to 10,000.
    This would leave them with a much smaller bomber fleet right from the start. Losses among the heavier aircraft would have been disasterous and much harder to make up as well. Hardly a good trade off for them.
     
  3. SteveM

    SteveM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    14
    This is a quote emblematic of several statements that hold to the belief Allied Strategic Bombing played little to no role in defeating Germany.

    Although the Allied Strategic Bombing Campaign failed to accomplish many of its stated goals, and to this day many in the world put far too much faith in the abilit of airpower to influence events on the ground, there were many significant war altering benefits of the Strategic Bombing Campaign irrespective of the direct damage it caused to German production, infrastructure, oil refining operations, etc....

    Rather than going into all of them here, and hewing more closely to the initial topic of this thread, let's just focus on two impacts the Allied Strategic Bombing Campaign had on Germany's war effort.

    One, without the Strategic Bombing Campaign Germany would not have needed to invest such considerable resources in developing technologies to combat Strategic Bombing (such as the heavy push to get jet fighters out before they technical difficulties had truly been sorted out - the engine problems in particular).

    Two, without the Allied Strategic Bombing Campaign Germany also would not have needed to pull the vast majority of the Luftwaffe's fighters from the German Eastern Front during the critical years of the War. Many forget, but the German Army forged its greatest victories in the war with a heavy assist from the Luftwaffe. Moroever, at the same time the bulk of the Luftwaffe's assets were redeployed back to Germany in 1943-44 German fortunes in Eastern Europe took a decided turn for the worse. Now there were many, many reasons for the Red Army's rebound and the turning of the tide in Eastern Europe but one of those reasons was the Luftwaffe's increasing disappearance from Eastern Europe's skies.

    Finally, the very nature of this thread, in focusing on the question as to whether the Me-262 could have turned the war back to Germany's favor, speaks to the impact the Allied Strategic Bombing Campaign had on World War II.
     
    brndirt1 likes this.
  4. STURMTRUPPEN

    STURMTRUPPEN Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    611
    Likes Received:
    4
    the raf would have been shot out of the sky earlier in the war then
     
  5. jaxson50

    jaxson50 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2009
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    5
    SteveM
    Good post, The Allied bombing of chewed up the Luftwaffe equipment and men faster then the German's could replace men and aircraft or repair what they had.
    The Me-262 was fantastic, a giant leap forward, as was many of the weapons the German's developed during the war years.
    But to the question asked in the original post,
    If the Me-262 had been created earlier I doubt it would have changed the out come. No single weapon system or technology would change the mind set of Germany's leadership (or should I say leader?) that lead to strategic and tactical blunders.
    Hitler would still have been in charge, he would still have ordered a second front opened up in Russia. American and British bombers would still have hammered Germany into dust. Germany's industrial and logistical shortcomings would have been just a fatal.
     
    brndirt1 likes this.
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,312
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Location:
    Michigan
    Well in a dog fight speed can be a disadvantage. In this scenario the allies would do what they did historically. Simply place fighters over the Jets bases. The Md-262 didn't accelerate very well and if caught trying to take off or land they were sitting ducks. There were other problems that were inherent in the design ie weren't bugs that could be worked out. The high fuel consumption for instance is not good in a country that has a very limited supply. Some of the reliability problems were also a matter of what the Germans had available. IE they were not a good design for the materials at hand.
     
  7. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    the US A/F followed the jets back to their northern bases not actually sit over them waiting for jets to take off and land. the 262 was a piss poor performer on the fast turn and this was in most cases how they fell in air-action when a P-51 could turn inside and lay out it's lethal cargo of .50's
     
  8. YoungAirNut

    YoungAirNut Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    1
    I totally agree, Germany was not ready and capable of all the requirements and delicate work that the Me-262 required. And really, is there any aircraft of the 262's style (aka no turret and only forward mounted guns) that wasnt a sitting duck during take-off or landing? Not without a very crafty/stupid pilot at the "wheel" thats for sure.
     
  9. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    While this is getting a bit off topic, the P (F)-80 Shooting Star fared pretty well against the more advanced MiG-15, but then again even the MiG fell to prop jobs.

    By the time the Korean War began, the Allies were still employing propeller-driven fighters as well as their own set of jet fighters (Glosters, Lockheeds, and Republics). I forget who produced the USNs carrier based jets. Anyway, on August 2, 1952, a British Hawker Sea Fury of 805 Squadron flying off HMS Ocean piloted by Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael became the first piston fighter of the "police action" to shoot down a jet when he bagged a North Korean MiG-15.

    Not to be outdone by the Brits, about a month later, USMC Capt. Jesse G. Folmar of VMA-312, flying a F4U-4B Corsair, shot down a North Korean MiG-15. Unfortunately, Capt. Folmar had to bail out of his Corsair when he himself was attacked by an additional four MiG-15s.

    The Korean Police Action (war) brought 365 "Shooting Star" P-80s (F-80s) into operational units of the U.S. Far East Air Force, and gave them their first combat experience. These were pitted against what can only be considered the "second generation" of jet fighter; the MiG-15. This of course used a highly swept wing, and non-licensed R/R centrifugal "Nene" (?) engine, and slower firing automatic cannons.

    And let us not forget that the at that time the contemporary jet, the Republic F-84 was the first jet fighter to fly the Atlantic Ocean not using in-flight refueling, and that in 1946 using an axial flow engine in the Thunderjet (not the swept wing Thunderstreak) set a world speed record of 611 mph. The axial flow engine in the Thunderjet was NOT related to the 004 Jumo which had been used in the Me-262.

    Lt. Russell J. Brown, flying a "Shooting Star", destroyed a MiG-15 near the Yalu River on November 8, 1950, thus recording the first victory in an aerial combat between jet fighters. But certainly not the last victory for the Kelly Johnson’s Lockheed "Shooting Star" model, against both prop and second generation MiG-15 jets. They were successful against IL-10s, YaK-9s, as well as MiG-15s. The P (F)-80 "Shooting Star" was the first American aircraft to exceed 500 mph in level flight, the first American jet airplane manufactured in large quantities and the first U.S. Air Force jet used in actual air combat.

    Even when the Vietnam War started, the U.S. military had an assortment of jet fighters to tangle with the North Vietnamese MiG-17s and MiG-21s which were deployed there. There didn’t seem to be any further need for the propeller aircraft to engage a jet.

    The 1950s vintage USN/USAF Douglas Skyraider was everything a jet wasn’t, i.e. big, slow and heavy. But that didn’t stop the Skyraiders from shooting down their own share of MiGs. The last took place on October 9, 1966, when Lt. (j.g.) William T. Patton of VA-176 shot down a MiG-17 while flying his Skyraider over North Vietnam.

    Perhaps a good and experienced pilot in a robust aircraft can prevail over a faster one, when the F-86 "Saber" tolls/records over the MiG-15 are weighed against experienced Soviet pilots the numbers are far from embarrassing for the MiG. Against what even the allied pilots called "Honchos" (Soviet pilots), it was about a 1:1 ratio, not the huge more radical difference (7:1) as it put up against the Korean or Chinese pilots.

    Here is some anecdotal evidence at least, were other prop planes besides1940s Hawkers, Supermarine, P-51s and P-47s were victorious over jets; even against 2nd and 3rd generation jets.
     
  10. Plumky

    Plumky Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    7
    Well i guess you can all agree with me that we should all be happy this never happened and we won the war despite those aircraft!
     
  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,312
    Likes Received:
    1,230
    Location:
    Michigan
    The problem with 262 was the duration it was vulnerable and the fact that if you tried to push things you could get a flame out which at low altitude is not good.
     
  12. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    5,945
    Likes Received:
    758
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona



    The main USN fighters of that war were the F9F Panther by Grumman, the McDonnell F2H Banshee, and the Douglas F3D Skyknight nightfighter (high scoring fighter of the Korean war for the Navy and Marines). Also around at the time but not in Korea were the F4D Skyray (aka Ford) and North American FJ 1 Fury (a navalized Sabre jet).
     
  13. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    10,480
    Likes Received:
    424
    From post#126 that I made in this thread LOL.

    And just because someone is flying a jet doesn't always mean a Propeller driven aircraft will always lose.It takes more then just an aircraft to win. It takes pilot skill too. .

    "By the time the Korean War began, the Allies still utilized propeller-driven fighters as well as their own set of jet fighters. On August 2, 1952, a Hawker Sea Fury of 805 Squadron flying off HMS Ocean piloted by Peter “Hoagy” Carmichael became the first piston fighter of the war to shoot down a jet when he bagged a North Korean MiG-15. Not to be outdone by the British, and almost a month later, USMC Capt. Jesse G. Folmar of VMA-312, flying his F4U-4B Corsair, shot down a North Korean MiG-15. Unfortunately, Capt. Folmar had to bail out of his Corsair when he, in turn, was attacked by an additional four MiG-15s.
    When the Vietnam War started, the U.S. military had an assortment of all-jet fighters to tangle with the North Vietnamese MiG-17s and MiG-21s. There wasn’t any further need for the propeller aircraft to tangle with a jet. At least that’s how it was supposed to work. The 1950s vintage USN/USAF Skyraider was everything a jet wasn’t: slow and heavy. But that didn’t stop the Skyraiders from shooting down their own small share of MiGs. The last took place on October 9, 1966, when Lt. (j.g.) William T. Patton of VA-176 shot down a MiG-17 while flying his Skyraider over North Vietnam. "

    Props vs. Jets | Article Titles and Pages | The Magazine | Flight Journal Magazine



    "Although the Skyraider was never intended to be a fighter, it did achieve a couple of MiG "kills" during the Southeast Asian War. On June 20, 1965, Lts Charles Hartman and Clinton Johnson in A-1H BuNo 137523 and 139786 shared in the downing of a MiG-17 by cannon fire. On October 9, 1966, Lt JG William T. Patton of VA-176 flying A-1H BuNo 137543 shot down a MiG-17 near Hanoi."

    Service of AD Skyraider with US Navy
     
  14. YoungAirNut

    YoungAirNut Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    1
    Granted, very true.
     
  15. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    29
    dehaviland vampires would be produced earlier too,would they not?.cheers.
     
  16. YoungAirNut

    YoungAirNut Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    1
    Interesting point! The alies also had a developing jet plane! Like 4th wilts mentioned de Haviland was building the dH Vampire. What if the Vampire had come into the war earlier? Then what could have potentially hapened?
     
  17. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    5,945
    Likes Received:
    758
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona
    "Had a developing jet plane!"? Try had operation jet aircraft and many more in development.
    The US was flying the P-59 to gain experiance with jets as early as October 1942. The British had the Meteor I and III operational. The US P-80 was in service testing in May 1945.
    On the boards were jets like Republic's P-84 Thunderjet, DeHavilland's Vampire, McDonnell's FH-1 Fury, Vought's F6U Pirate, Consolidated's XP-81, among others. The Allies had just as many if not more designs in testing, prototyping, or on the drawing boards as the Germans did. Maybe it is about time those got a bit more attention too.
     
    JCFalkenbergIII and 4th wilts like this.
  18. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    81
    Oh no. Cant happen. You know how the nazi fanboys and tiger tank gonzos fold up into the fetal position when good US, British, or Soviet hardware are mentioned. We cant risk their delecate sensbilities :panic:
     
    JCFalkenbergIII likes this.
  19. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    29
    Actually this Nazi thinks that even if the Me-262 had come in earlier that the allies would eventually overcome the Me-262, the allies would be set back for a while but one aircraft no matter how good it is cannot be a sole reason to win the war, German technology throughout the war was spectacular and cutting edge stuff but poor production numbers cost the Germans i can only imagine the Luftwaffe having say 5000+ Me-262's on hand at any time and the experience pilots and all the fuel they needed to keep those aircraft in operation might have had a remarkable effect on the morale on the allies especially the airforces losing thousands of aircraft per month.

    And to offend sensibilities, that is when you dare to suggest that Germany under any circumstance could have won the war, the usual suspects begin to gang up on you.

    v.R
     
  20. YoungAirNut

    YoungAirNut Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    1
    ?????? what?
     

Share This Page