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What if western Allies agreed to truce with Germany

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by GrossBorn, Jan 9, 2008.

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  1. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Maybe 10 million? :D
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Yes, but how many of these troops and equipment would be needed to garrison the occupied nations of Europe and Africa?
     
  3. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    In May 1943, there were about 40 divisions or division equivalents along the Med Sea and North Africa alone.
     
  4. FramerT

    FramerT Ace

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    In '42, that leaves Germany with the battleships Tirpitz,Adm. Scheer and Prinz Eugen[among others] that, with England and U.S. neutral, Hitler could unleash into the Baltic.
    Along with the U-Boat fleet.

    I have to wonder if Bletchley Park would still be secretly sending de-coded messages to the Soviets.
     
  5. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Very true.

    But I must still ask as to how many men would be needed to Garrison the dozens of countries in German hands?
     
  6. chiefgeorge

    chiefgeorge Member

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    I think the Russians would have held on and fought for years no matter what Germany sent. A long, bloody stalemate unless Stalin is overthrown and some kind of deal is made. The Russians are very stubborn.

    I wonder if the Stalingrad episode in CallofDuty is accurate, where 1 guy got a rifle and the next one got ammo and off they went. Never underestimate the toughness and determination of the Russians.
     
  7. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

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    Hello guys,
    In this scenario, When Britain and the US agree to a peace with Germany does this include Germany's allies?

    If so then Japan is left with soldiers to fight the US and Britian and no one to fight. China is left with little or no aid and Japan is free to open a second front in Russia. Japan is the one to break the non-aggression treaty and now it is Russia fighting the two front war and would inevitably lose.

    If not: Russia holds out. It would prolong the outcome but can't change the war

    If only Britain agrees to truce with Japan:
    The bomb is still dropped on Japan by US forces. FDR still wants to fight Hitler and secretly keeps sending lend-lease but in greater quantities since Britain no longer needs theres
     
  8. tikilal

    tikilal Ace

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    Too bad we cant push the rewind and see how it would have played out.

    I think under this What ifffffffffffffff that France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, and Poland are occupied. Wait I forgot Greece, and that other one right next to it. So only 6 or 7 nations are occupied.

    I wonder if oil would have been forth coming in the treaty, if it had the objectives of the 42 summer campaign may have remained the destruction of the Russian army instead of trying to get to the caucas oil fields. With the added divisions would Moscow have become a target again?
     
  9. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    How about Belarus, Ukraine, Yugoslavia, small garrison in the Baltic states and Africa? ;)
     
  10. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    To reply to Sloniksp If we were transfer all German divisions that served in North Africa, and Norway that equates to at least 35 divisions, also if we stripped all but Static Divisions from France & the Low Countries that would be another 40+ divisions, then again in Italy a further 30 divisions, and the Balkans maybe another 25+ plus.

    So that makes at least 125+ divisons and i think 10 of those are panzer division that could equate to an extra Heers Gruppen or at least one large pool of Reserves. One issue that has not been covered does Britain and USA make truce with Italy as well if so then Italy had someting like 90 divisions 68 of them Infantry. And if we take Germany and Italy plus the Axis we could gather at least 400 divisions on the Eastern Front for the Axis.

    But as yet i have begun to accrue the Divisions that i would see being sent to the Eastern Front.
     
  11. chiefgeorge

    chiefgeorge Member

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    I doubt if Hitler would have stripped the occupied countries and I don't think Italy would have been that much help. The US could use all it's resources against Japan, so Japan probably couldn't launch much of Russian front. Eastern Russia(Siberia) is huge and a tough place to fight. Anyway, any how, it would be a long, tough, bloody fight with no real winner.
     
  12. Keith Staton

    Keith Staton Member

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    Deleted at request of K Staton
     
  13. Falcon Jun

    Falcon Jun Ace

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    I agree with this one.
    It's true that German troops would still be needed in the occupied countries but I have to point out that since this what if postulates a truce between the Western Allies and Germany, it implies a political condition that allows Germany to move forces east. Since such a political atmosphere exists, it would also allow the rise of governments in the occupied territories supportive of Germany. It's possible that they could raise local troops to supplement what German units are remaining in the occupied areas (that's what's happening in Iraq.)
    Thus it's not far fetched to have a situation wherein skeleton German units are maintained in occupied areas.
     
  14. alephh

    alephh Member

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    I think that without Lend-lease the Soviet Union would have collapsed. After Barbarossa started Stalin ordered almost all the factories to start to build military machines. Insanely locomotives, cars, tractors, etc were no longer produced (or were produced in very very small numbers). So the collapse of the economy (food, transport) was pretty unavoidable in the future - especially without Lend-lease. And ordering more and more men from fields to the Red Army Stalin was making sure that there wasn't workforce available to replace machinery (tractors) with raw manpower. Old grannies just could not produce enough food for the entire nation in their small private gardens. Even with the Lend-lease there was pretty solid lack of food - I once read a very vivid accout about a russian soldier who desperately wanted from the hospital back to the frontline - not because of patriotism, but because it was the only place to get even small food rations.


    _
     
  15. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Gentlemen Im afraid that this "what-if" is has turned into the unfortunately so common scenerio of Germany and pretty much all of the other countries fighting just the Soviet Union.

    This "what-if" may just as well be Germany and her allies VS The Soviet Union.

    Even actual events and other historical facts are be rendered useless in this "what-if".
    125 additional divisions from Western Europe to transfer to the East? Which means that the conquered Western Europe is now left free to rebel? For those of you who may think other wise, are there no nationalists in those countries? Rebelling would not be difficult as there would practically be no Germans left in all of Western Europe!

    Not to mention that even a lot of those divisions, were not at full strength, fully equipped nor did they have the same experience that the troops in the East had. Also it might take months just to bring all of these men to the east.

    Why would Germany and Italy leave Africa?

    Why would the Allies resume trade with Germany and Italy after a peace treaty if there is still a war going on and Germany is the bad guy?

    As for Italy, unfortunately their worthiness was proved in Africa. I dont care if there were 2 million of them, with what they had ( not much of anything, nor a good reason to fight ) they simply could not get the job done.

    I find this "what-if" on the same level as "what-if Russia had no tanks" or "What-if Germany had 5000 Tigers in 1941".

    So Gentlemen with out further ado, I must withdraw from this thread.

    P.S.

    What if the Germans had help from aliens! :D
     
  16. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Unfortunately the largest reason for the food shortage was due to Germany occupying Ukraine. This did two things. 1. It fed the entire German army in the East. 2. It had serious shortages for the Red Army
     
  17. john1761

    john1761 Member

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    If there is a peace treaty with the West then the resistance groups in the occupied lands receive no supplies as in OTL. They would wither and die. Plus as posted above the puppet regimes would take over more of the security work. Does the Axis still need to man the Atlantic wall or even continue to build it?
     
  18. GrossBorn

    GrossBorn Member

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    Is this reply akin to "I'm taking my ball and going home"?
     
  19. Neon Knight

    Neon Knight Member

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    nazi really got help from the outer space. here's one clear evidence :lol:

    View attachment 1179
     

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  20. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    Here is the original question.

    And here is an observation

    Well according to Ellis Germany could have fielded something like 300+ divisions, Italy 100+, Axis allies some 200+ bringing something like 600+ divisions to fight the Soviets on the Eastern Front.

    And according to Georg F Nafziger Germany at one point or another fielded something like 386 Infantry Divisions on the battlefield throughout the war.

    So where am i going with this it is just that without having to worry about any future Western European invasion by Western Allied forces, no Operation Torch, or Overlord and many others the entire Axis could concentrate on the sole role of taking on the Soviet Union with at worse 600+ divisions at best 700+ divisions, then we have to add the many hundreds of thousands of Non German troops that served in the Waffen SS. Would the Soviet Union hold out i don't believe so.

    Sloniksp made mention of Italy could field 2,000,000 Italian troops and still be ineffective, not if they are brought under direct OKW field command and each Italian division has several German Army Officers assigned to them as co-ordinators, that way those Italian divisions are more or less surrogate German Division and they are distributed throughout the entire front and not grouped together.
     
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