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Which tank was the most mass produced?

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by Onthefield, Oct 2, 2003.

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  1. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    C.Evans I did not reply to your reply in which you commented on my 'attitude'. However you have again posted in a simalar manner so...........

    "PS, I also have about 25 or so letters from Remy. Am I supposed to get them all translated word for word and post them here?

    Well.....I AINT."

    Well DON'T! Who asked you to and what exactly are you trying to prove?
    I have too spoken with a British 'HERO' from WWII but don't feel the need to brag about it.


    "What you also have there is also a condensed version of what happened and all details are not in the book. How do I know? BECAUSE Remy told me so"

    Good, you have special information and of course we should accept your word as good enough for us because.....well because why?

    "when it comes to Remy's carreer--I KNOW what i'm talking about."


    Again I am glad we have people who instinctively know what is right and we should all thank you for sharing your insight with us.

    Grow up and stop all this nonesense.
     
  2. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    No offense guys but why don't you all grow up? Maybe I am doing a 'pot' impression here (you guys being the kettel) but calm down, Carl, Kenny means no offense (though I don't get how being British has anything to do with it) just is trying to get a point across, much as you are. No report is 100% accurate, take the example of Halivadar Umrau Singh who beat back a company of Japanese, to read the report it would sound like he did it on his own, no, he was just the only survivor of his unit and he was the one who wound up fighting hand to hand on his own killing 30 Japanese almost single handed. Reports came from his men and his British Officer. The thing is, what is important is the story and what was achieved, whether this chap killed the whole Red Army or just 2 tanks, surley we can just be impressed by the fact that he kept fighting.

    So far as the issue of numbers is concerned, well did the Luftwaffe not count partial kills (say 1/3 of a kill) as an whole kill, thus if five pilots all reported a share in the same kill then five extra kills would be reported. I have also read (please don't ask for sources, too early in the morning) claims that where men like Wittman were credited with hundreds of kills, which naturaly people believe to be tanks, many of them were also soft targets, carriers etc. This is basically what happened to Richthoven, 80 kills, a high percentage of which were not fighters but rediculously weak British and French 2 seaters. People simply toggled onto the idea of the Red Barron who destroyed 80 fighters in single combat.

    I have forgotten what I was trying to get at so now I will stop before this gets out of hand, I suggest some of you consider doing the same.
     
  3. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    Not going to get involved in this pissing match, but I apparently do need to clarify my main point.

    vs

    Carl- that is a contradiction. Either his kills were confirmed, or he scored higher than the "official" count. Can't have it both ways.

    As I noted earlier, you proved my point yourself. Wether the real number is higher or lower, the point stands (by your own words on Remy) that the kill numbers he is "officially" acredited with may well NOT be the real kill counts for his engagments.

    Hope that makes my point clear (and does not solicit any more insults :rolleyes: ).

    Damn right!

    Damn right again!
    :D
     
  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    guys, much of the last posting's most probably should of been done by a private e-mail.......as we are coming to a slugging match. This is a Warning to all that some of the posts maybe edited. Back on topic please or start another one.

    The affirmation of Remy's, Wittmann's or any tank, pz jgr ace, stug or Air force pilot from any nation will always be debated with no-end results.
    those men were there, they were part of those particular actions. All we can do is read about them and enjoy their stories and be totally amazed that they made it through, some to war's end and some not so fortunate. We can see this in our very own Sapper's memories here on the boards. Please, let's not be so hasty to discredit ones victory claims, as most or nearly all of us do not have the days statistics in our possession........

    ok back to production numbers.......who has production figures for the Cromwell and does anyone know just how many through British sources were sent to the Soviets as lend lease... ? a slight tweak on our original question

    ~E
     
  5. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    Only too happy to (try and!) oblige, herr Leutnant!

    At work, so I'm limited to internet sources... I did a quick search, and found the following info. NOTE- this stuff comes from a wargaming site, with no source listed- so Ifor one can certainly not vouch for it's accuracy!


    from http://www.islandnet.com/~citizenx/Stalins3.html
    (I boldfaced the numbers...)

    Odd though... nothing listed here for Cromwells!?

    And more...
    from http://www.skalman.nu/worldwar2/su-lendlease.htm
    No specific numbers for each type here... and still no Cromwells?

    No tanks listed in this next source, but- it is a 25+ (!!) page list of ALL the goods sent from the US to Russia. Interesting stuff... I scrolled through it quickly and saw, among other things, 80,000+ Pounds of Caffeine!!!
    :eek:
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Excellent Crazy ! wonder if the Soviet Union in return gave several hundred thousand bootles of premium Vodka as down payment ? ;)
    I wonder too how many Shermans were sent on lend-lease to the Soviets as well... ?

    cheers

    ~E
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The total number of specific tanks shipped being in the end of the latter site ( sent by CrazyD in his last post )??

    6 Cromwells? etc.
     
  8. Mahross

    Mahross Ace

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    I have to say i have never heard of the russians recieving Cromwells. I know, as Crazy pointed out, that Matilda's, Valentine's and Churchill's were supplied but i would have thought that the Cromwell was produced to late in the war at a time when soviet tank production was at it peak and therefore didn't need lend lease tanks but much rather the more mundane things like boots and trucks.

    Out of interest where did you read this Erich?
     
  9. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    Heh... That list is damn interesting- and amusing!!
    Cigarettes, Caffeine, etc. etc.... those "necessities" we often forget about!!

    As far as the Shermans goes, again, much of what I've found in my brief search this afternoon has been info on wargaming sites.
    BUT- heres one of them -http://www.wargamer.com/cmbb/lendlease.asp- that has some specifics on the Shermans sent.
    M4A2 75mm Sherman- ~2,007 shipped, ~1,750 arrived
    M4A2 76mm Sherman- ~2,095 shipped, ~1,850 arrived

    Another interesting tidbit form the above site-
    Considering how Churchill felt about Stalin, this one is rather interesting.

    Again though, since the most of the info I've found has come from wargaming websites, I would be interested in some more "reliable" info...

    Edit after seeing Kai and Mahross's posts
    Kai, good note! I missed entirely that list near the bottom- according to the skalman site, there were 6 Cromwells sent.

    And another- looks like I actually forgot to note the web addy from that site that listed the Caffeine and whatnot.
    http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/lend.html
    There ya go!
    Some amusing highlights-
    Tacks 900,422 Ibs.
    Barbed wire 81,459,023 lbs.
    Bags of jute 5,538 lbs.
    ---(What is a bag of jute??)--
    Dental creams 78 lbs.
    ---(What? Only 78 lbs. of Dental creams??)
    Dynamite l0,781,450 lbs.

    Figures, now I can't find the listing for Caffeine on there.
    Maybe my morning coffe had something to do with it...

    [ 07. October 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]
     
  10. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Mkenny--I too know a British Hero--thanks to a great British friend of mine. He is a V.C. Recipeint and is the only living one who was in the DLI. What he did on the River Dyle can easily be matched with what Remy did (though not the same kind of action) and he can also be compared to our most highly decorated soldier of ww2 and Medal of Honor Recipeint--Audie Leon Murphy.

    Lets take Murphy as a prime example.

    He was also credited with killing somewhere between 50-100 German Infantry in one single action. This was on board a burning Sherman tank along with its exploding ammunition. Audies was wounded in the explosion of one of the tanks shells in the process.

    So you cannot tell me that feats such as what Murphy or Capt Annand went through cannot be matched bu someone who fought with the Waffen SS.

    Whatever you are trying to go after is moor--and crazys postings do not make sense. I cannot figure out what he is trying to get at--we all are basically repeating ourselves.

    Anyway, and apparently, to YOU I have to go through with translating Remys letters for you because YOU refuse to accept what is fact.
     
  11. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    Quote:

    "As to the tank figures, I'm not sure about the exact numbers, but the most produced tank was the Sherman. Almost 52.000 were produced. The T-34 is closely behind with some 48.000. Anything beyond that is an exageration"

    Hunnicutt's Sherman book lists total WARTIME production of Shermans as 49234.

    Wolfgang Fleischer, in his book 'Russian Tanks And Armoured Vehicles 1917-1945 lists T-34 production as 35099 T-34's and 29430 T-34/85. a toal of 64529 WARTIME T-34's

    The Osprey T34/85 book says a further 15000 T-34/85's were produced by Russia up to 1950.
    Also Czech/Polish and Yugoslavian production added 4572 T-34/85's to this. That is 64529 +19572=84101!.
     
  12. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    There were more to the tune of 70,000 ++ Shermans produced in ww2. This is a US Gov't figure.
     
  13. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    Quote:

    "Lets take Murphy as a prime example.

    He was also credited with killing somewhere between 50-100 German Infantry in one single action. This was on board a burning Sherman tank along with its exploding ammunition. Audies was wounded in the explosion of one of the tanks shells in the process."


    Audie decided to take action. Near his position was a burning tank destroyer. Audie climbed on top, and turned the machine gun on the approaching Germans. As Audie fired from the burning tank, the artillery began to land in earnest and the German advance faltered. For almost an hour, Audie continued to lay down fire on the Germans. When he ran out of ammunition, he dropped into the snow and discovered he had been wounded, his third, in the leg. Enemy soldiers lay dead just 10 yards from the tank destroyer. For this daring feat, Audie was recommended for and received the Medal of Honor. His citation reads:

    Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company B 1 5th Infantry, 3d Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Holtzwihr France, 26 January 1945. Entered service at: Dallas, Tex. Birth: Hunt County, near Kingston, Tex. G.O. No.. 65, 9 August 1945. Citation 2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.
     
  14. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    Quote:

    "There were more to the tune of 70,000 ++ Shermans produced in ww2. This is a US Gov't figure."

    I think you are confusing M3 and M4 total WARTIME production plus every AFV built on an M3/M4 chassis. Hunnicutt's book on the Sherman is without doubt 'THE' classic work and I very much doubt he got it wrong. If we include in the T-34 numbers all the SU-85/SU-100 WARTIME production we can add 3725 to the T-34 totals (SU-85/SU-100 being on T-34 chassis).
     
  15. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    I see that the thread is getting very interesting. some good debateable figures and then who did what to whom........

    hmmmmmmmmmm........

    Ross, I think I confused my own self. Yes my understanding that after 1943 T-34 production basically took over and no-more lend lease was needed. thank you gentlemen for the additional info on types. So I should of stated Churchill's instead of Cromwells. My total misunderstanding of British armor as can be readily seen....

    ~E
     
  16. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    All right, I tried to let this one drop.

    Carl- do you not understand a contradiction? You cannot claim that Remy's kills were verified- and then follow with "he probably under-estimated"!!

    IF his kills were confirmed- that would be FACT, correct?
    So... if his "confirmed" kills are FACT - then they COULD NOT have been more!!

    Geez, you are really missing my entire point. I would agree with what is obviously your belief- Remy probably knocked out MORE tanks than his kill count suggests!!
    But this simply confirms my theory on kill counts- that they are next to impossible to "verify" beyond any sort of a reasonable doubt.

    Can someone else help me out here? Does this make sense, wether you agree or not?
    (If I'm not making sense, I'd like to know!!)

    Really, I don't want to get ehated or start an argument. I'd really like to know if I'm not making sense!! :confused:

    [ 07. October 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]
     
  17. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    did you say jute C ? you know what that stuff is.......it's for smoking !

    oh wiat that wasn;t your question ;)

    C you both are talking about the same thing I feel. I believe that Carl maybe talking about Remy's combined score for the whole war and has not broken his series of Pak 40 kills seperately by each time fragment........ah my CT is taking it's toll on my poor typing.....

    I better get off this thing for awhile

    thoughts on this C ?

    ~E
     
  18. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Mkenny--i'm talking ONLY about the wartime production of Sherman tanks--not other vehicles built using that chassis.

    Oh and yes--I know Audies Citation, thanks for posting it. With not having that at my fingers is why I also put in such a range of German Infantry killed and wounded. Thanks for the confirmation of it. Again, this is for a single action and Remys was for a series of actions taking place in a period of about 72 hours.

    Crazy. I SAID that he PROBABLY estimated--not that he really did. If you had carefully read my post--you would have seen that. There is NO contradiction in terms.

    His kills were confirmed and it is fact--in that you are correct.

    What I mean in Remy probably knocked out more tanks than his kill suggests is because Remy is also a modest man who has no need to brag. He ONLY admitted to the KOing of that numbers quoted because he also knew that if he admitted to a higher tally that he would most likely not be believed. Therefore--he admitted to the 17 that his C.O. had on record from witnesses as well as what Paul-Albert Kausch documented.

    Hi Erich--thanks for the help but, I am talking about his tally for that one action. Thanks again my friend. Tell you the truth, I don't know what Remys wartime total is--it never occurred to me to ask. [​IMG]

    [ 07. October 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]
     
  19. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    Quote:

    "Mkenny--i'm talking ONLY about the wartime production of Sherman tanks--not other vehicles built using that chassis."

    Hunnicutts tables are very detailed and list all wartime M4 production by sub-type. Can you provide details of your source?. Again I can only repeat, Hunnicutt,s book is the most sought after and hardest to find book on the Sherman. It is not likely to be wrong in anything as simple as production runs.
     
  20. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    The source is from the US Govt site. You can get it by going to the Search Engines.
     
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