Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Who Shot 'J-Johnnie' Down ?

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by Martin Bull, Mar 2, 2003.

  1. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    think we can always question the authenticity of any night action as it was incredibly difficult for the LW and the RAF to be 100 % certain whom they faced as to a/c, one reason being the LW crews trying to ID RAF a/c and only giving a claim for a 4-motor in their logbooks. you are both correct, NJG 1 was in the area but who could be given the credit.

    as we have said over the last week reviving some of the old threads could give new blood to an otherwise dead one and we should strive to bring them up once in awhile
     
  2. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,478
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Location:
    London, England.
    Hello Skipper - yes, apologies - it's a very old thread, starting 'way back in 2003 when I bought some parts from JB-659 on e-bay. This turned into a private little research hobby which has taken me to the remains of RAF Bourn, the PRO in London, the hangar at Wickenby airfield where the excavated remains of the Lancaster are being kept etc. It has also put me in contact with researchers in Holland and Belgium who have also been looking into the circumstances surrounding the loss of the bomber just west of Amsterdam.

    My idea all along has been that the deaths of 55,000 aircrew is such a huge number that it is difficult to grasp. Just focusing on one very typical RAF bomber, lost in the middle of the worst time of the 'bomber war', helps me to better understand the whole picture......
     
  3. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    Martin and why not place your emphasis on this well know Allied pilot. who knows maybe this might get to as long as Alex and his Lancaster thread which is multi-faceted in approach. I think many of us gel quite well in analysis of the events with many diverse data on the night air war. I really groove in the positive when things like this come up and it has proven itself with your keen placement recently of images to Normandie on the other threads to bring up others interest of those that have visited and can say "I've been there"
     
  4. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,377
    No problem Martin , I actually enjoyed reading the thread. For a moment I thought it had started while I was in Normandy for two days. Just thought I'd try to help you. Amazing you actually bought these relics on ebay.
     
  5. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,478
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Location:
    London, England.
    Yes and there has been a lot of controversy, especially among Dutch recovery groups, that parts have been sold for profit. I could see their point and do not intend to de-rail this thread into a discussion of the morality or otherwise of this.

    For my part, I was pleased to be able to add identifiable Lancaster relics to my collection, and thought that by privately researching the crew and the story of the aircraft, it's my own extremely humble tribute to them.

    While I'm working on the research, and posting details here, at least the efforts and sacrifice of all the men who fought in those night skies is not totally forgotten.
     
  6. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,377
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts and showing the nice relics. The Merlin part is a beauty!
     
  7. Stevin

    Stevin Ace

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,883
    Likes Received:
    26
    Johnnie's crew (minus one)
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    Martin made an earlier reference about LW nf a/c being in the same grid reference..............yes it did happen. the story might be reversed but : Heinz Rökker was about ready to shoot down an RAF 4-engine on a 1945 missions and his guns jammed and one of his I./NJG 2 pilot mates came in and shot the RAF bomber down before his eyes...............this may have been reversed as I need to locate the story to confirm
    I know of another occassion that this happened also in NJG 6 in 1945 as well

    so yes indeed two crews or more could have been in the same sector grid hunting down heavies
     
  9. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,478
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Location:
    London, England.
    You're quite right, Erich - which is why, as I say, without going down a time-tunnel there's no way to be 100% certain...ever.

    But for me, a recorded victory and time and an aircraft crashing inside the correct grid reference at the same time is enough to make me....well...reasonably satisfied.....;)
     
  10. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,377
    Erich when was this 1945 mission when Rökker's Schräge jammed?
     
  11. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,478
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Location:
    London, England.
    ..couldn't resist photographing anothe relic ; a near-perfect Merlin rocker-arm which spent 60 years in a Dutch polder.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,377
    Wow and it has been restored with love too. it looks almost new.
     
  13. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    Martin are you charging admission yet for your aviation museum ? :D I luv it !!
    ah but we can ascertain some LW to RAF a/c kills - claims as certain, think we did that pretty much with Alex's downing by Straßner. but fully realize that within a grid reference and sometimes thre are 3-4 LW craft within an area which is larger than one might think 5 Lancasters could be hit in the 4 armed box.

    Skipper without my data in front of me I want to say it was Unternehmen Gisela, but again I am going of the top of my thin hair line on that one, it's very dank out right now here in S. Oregon so will look for it this morn

    E ~ Martin keep posting more of the collection(s) please. some day a digital is coming to the Brown home
     
  14. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    even the author of said posting gets confused :) yes it was Gisela but my version of the story is warped. Rökkers SM was working but he overshot and the crew watched as the Glimspur missed the bomber altogether, as precious seconds went by he hesitated too long to try and get behind the bomber as it was going through manuevers to avoid the Ju 88G-6. Ofw. Winn (who later shot down the last RAF bomber of the war while on I./NJG 2) had also pursued the same RAF bomber and was in shooting position when Rökker cut in front - my wording - failed in his attack to bring the Allied craft down. Winn was a bit pee-od as he thought he had a perfect attack set-up and kill just waiting.....
     
  15. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,377
    Thanks for mentioning this Erich :)
    Was it Rudolf Winn who got the last Lanc from his unit? I thought it was Jung on April 27th.
     
  16. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    yes it was Rudi Winn flying Ju 88G-6 4R+DH with his two man crew of 1./NJG 2 on April 8, 1945. In Rökkers Chronic he mentions that Rudi shot down a B-17 but that is incorrect as it was a Halifax. Rudi's 3rd victory which earned him a EK 1.
     
  17. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,377
    Ok, thanks for mentionning that mistake I also had the B-17 listed instead of the Hali.
     
  18. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,478
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Location:
    London, England.
    I enjoy updating this thread from time to time.

    Here's another photo which I've just rediscovered and scanned. Taken four years ago on my 'field trip' to the old RAF Bourn on the exact 60th anniversary of the day JB659 'J-Johnnie' took off from this very runway, never to return.

    [​IMG]


    These old East Anglia airfields, in the depths of winter, are incredibly bleak and lonely places.
     
  19. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,478
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Location:
    London, England.
    This is excellent - obviously, the purchase of some old relics has led others to research the story as well.

    A very nicely-produced private video at ; -

    The Story Of Avro Lancaster JB659.
     
  20. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,478
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Location:
    London, England.
    ,,and I've just realised that this video was made by 'Hanglands' - who has contributed to this Forum recently. Well done that man ! :cool:
     

Share This Page