Worst generals

AT THE TIME OF THE RHINE CROSSING IN NORTHWEST EUROPE...

Did you perhaps miss this ?

I had posted a BBC account of Montys actions it was entierly misleading...

 

That sort of clears it up, yeah.

As you have read from my other posts in this thread I am no supporter of Monty myself, but the fact was that he did get to bear the brunt of the German defensive forces when trying to clear the West Bank of the Rhine, just like his forces had gotten to bear the brunt of the German forces in Normandy. This says little about his command abilities, it is only fact.

If the Americans did indeed take such terrible losses then mistakes will have been made.

 

Well, I am no fan of Monty, and Caen would have been tough for any one.

Mistakes for the Amerians, hmm, those numbers include American losses for Simpson in the north and the include expanding the bridgehead on the far side of the Rhine.

When I say crossing the Rhine, it includes the final push to the Rhine, crossing the Rhine and the Rhineland expansion

I have looked for my sources again, but I can not find them.




Making a strong stand at the Roer River and at places where the West Wall remained intact, the Germans imposed some delay but paid dearly in the process, losing 250,000 troops that could have been used to better advantage on the Rhine.
Falling back behind the river, the Germans had made careful plans to destroy all bridges, but something went amiss at the Ludendorff railroad bridge in the First Army's sector at Remagen. On March 7 a task force of the 9th Armored Division found the bridge damaged but passable. Displaying initiative and courage, a company of infantry dashed across. Higher commanders acted promptly to reinforce the foothold.

To the south, a division of the Third Army on March 22 made a surprise crossing of the Rhine in assault boats. Beginning late the next day the 2I Army Group and the Ninth U.S. Army staged a full-dress crossing of the lower reaches of the river, complete with an airborne attack rivaling in its dimensions Operation MARKET. The Third Army then made two more assault crossings, and during the last few days of March both the Seventh Army and the 1st French Army of the 6th Army Group crossed farther upstream. Having expended most of their resources west of the river, the Germans were powerless to defeat any Allied crossing attempt.

As the month of April opened, Allied armies fanned out from the Rhine all along the line with massive columns of armor and motorized infantry. Encircling the Ruhr, the First and Ninth Armies took 325,000 prisoners, totally destroying an entire German army group. Although the Germans managed to rally determined resistance at isolated points, a cohesive defensive line ceased to exist.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/AMH/AMH-22.html

 

How about these two for some of the worst US generals of WWII:

Leslie McNair - Largely responsible for organizing, equipping and training teh US Army in WWII as head of Army ground Forces, McNair championed the modular army approach, the original US Army replacement policy and the Tank Destroyer force. In retrospect the US Army would have been better off with divisions with integrated support battalions, especially armor, instead of independant GHQ battalions. The TDs were a total mistake, especially the towed battalions, and the armored forces needed heavier armed and armored AFVs than the 75mm M4s and the light M5. The replacement policy may have allowed US divisions to remain in the field indefinitely, but only at the expense of combat efficieny and lives. AGF also bulit up a huge number of AAA battalions which were of doubtful value, many of which were later dis-banded to supply repalcements to the infantry. McNair was killed in a short bombing incident prior to Cobra.

General J.C. Lee - responsible for the Zone of Communications (Basically supply and infrastrucutre) for the US armies in North West Europe. Lee's bloated command became the center of the huge black market activities rampant in NWE in the last year of the war. When Eisenhower forbade any SHAEF HQs in Paris, Lee moved in and his supply troops took over the town. Supplies were continuously siphoned off for the black market and Lee either could not or would not do anything about it.

 

yep, the airmna that dropped a bomb on Mc Nair should have gotten a medal

Lee, another loser, Bradley hated him for good reason

 

I'd nominate Mountbatten as worst leader, I know he was an Admiral but he went on to command ground forces both in Europe and the Far East.

He had a pretty spotty record- Four Destroyers sunk from underneath him.

He was then transferred to COHQ, apparently to get him on dry land, where he was in charge of the raiding campaign across the Channel.
It was here that he lead a mostly Canadian force on the Dieppe Raid, where the Canadians sustained their highest causualty rate of the war.
Research of war-time documents has failed to produce any offical authorization by the Imperial Staff for Jubilee, so Mountbatten was basically acting on his own authority. If he hadn't been royalty he probably would have been court-martialed. Instead he was promoted and sent to India to get him out of the political line of fire.

 

in my eyes general freyberg is the worsest general he faild to knock out the fallschirmjäger in crete .
he hesitatet to engage the fallschirmjäger strongholds with tanks even most fallschirmjäger were droped wrong it would be an easy game for him but he faild ,allowing the fallschirläger to recive reenforcements and to counter attack wiping out the comonweath troops from the island
and in 1944 again the Fallschirmjäger fucked him up at cassino concentrating his forces around the montecassino and unnecesarily bombing the abby given the fallschirmjäger another stronghold for a long time

 

Freyberg's record is better than you imply. It's true that he couldn't hold Crete, but would anyone else have done better under the conditions he was operating under, and with the same troops, equipment, etc.? Given the makeup of his ground troops (and a mixed bag they were, too...), the fact that the German assault on Crete almost failed says a lot about his leadership, IMHO.

Cassino is the one decision he made that was totally inexcusable. Such a blunder, however, merely means that the man was a flawed, fallible human being. And other officers in Italy made even worse mistakes than he did. His overall leadership was sound.

 

so who is the worsest general in your eyes?

 

How about General Lee, in overall command of Allied logistics in the ETO post-D-Day?

Criticised by just about every combat commander, he appears to have devoted more effort to finding a comfy billet in Paris and making a profit than trucking stores. He even failed to think up a back-up plan on the off-chance that major ports were not made available to the Allies.
Hence the Red Ball Express, which (while a remarkable achievement and all credit to the truck drivers) was a wasteful & hasty solution.

 

I don't get how any of you can nominate Monty, or Patton instead of Gamelin and Weygand.

Those guys snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

Gamelin defenetly right
but weygand just took the conseqenz of the shit that happens he had no choise.

 

You should read De Gaulle's war memoirs. According to De Gaule Weygand had a very large part in preventing the french from staging a tactical retreat to return to France after reorganizing in North Africa. He also had a big part in overthrowing the government. I can't summarize everything De Gaulle said about his role in poor decisions, but they were a big factor.

On top of that Weygand did cancel the only competent command Gamelin gave.

His first move was to cancel an order for the British and French Forces to break through the German Lines which were at the time paper thin. He then gave the same orders when the Germans heavily reinforced their lines.

 

[/quote]


There was however no clear order by Gamelin to attack on the flank of the Panzer Divisions.
There were merely instructions given to the commander of the north eastern front, General Georges giving some vague indications on cutting of the panzers from the rest of the german forces.

The first real plan of attacking the german flank was decided on 21th may at the conference of Ypres, in presence of General Weygand, General Billotte(commanding the first army group)and King Leopold(commanding the belgian army).Lord Gort arrived later, after Weygand already had left.

At this stage, the counter attack could still have been sucessfull, but for multiple causes it never took place.
Anyway, what France and the allies needed when Weygand took over was a miracle.
And Weygand did not fulfill the miracle....

 

yep what ever weygand had done the defeat was unavoidable

 

i personally think that Lieutenant-General Percival was the worst in South-Asia. He let the whole colonies of malaya and singapore fall.

 

But that had some other reasons as well. The Singapore garrison expected to be attacked from the sea, and didn't have proper defences inland; the Japanese had tanks, against which the British didn't have any weapons. I also believe the Japanese had complete air superiority.

 

actually the bri did have at weapons like the boys at rifle and the 2pounder :bang:

 

i'm told Monty is too carefull so he ended up not losing too much troop. However it was also his down fall.

 

when it comes to Singapore....ask the natives! hahaha.

Well, we singaporeans hated Percival for one thing...surrendering and leaving the Chinese in a massive slaughter in what was known as "sook ching" that left our beaches buried with dead chinese men that we spent years trying to dig up. They killed them for the fierce resistance in China and for donating to the Chinese cause.

Anyway, the British command was warned that the Japanese could at anytime attempt amphibious landing somewhere along Northern Malaysia but did nothing about it. British propaganda underestimated the Japs as people who can't shoot straight and bow-legged.British officers danced while the jungle was at war! Of course,to be fair,the japs had tanks in the jungle that surprised the british who didn't have any because they thought the jungle couldn't support tank warfare.

The worst mistake was surrendering. Another week and Yamashita would have retreated due to lack of supplies. The losses of an entire Chinese volunteer corp that he didn't arm adequately as well as the loss of the Malay regiment in the battle of Bukit Timah just goes to prove British unwillingness to fight and commit.

However,to be honest,Britain was fighting a war in Europe as well.Material was badly-needed. But Percival! That man leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.