Let's hope it is only a rumour. "The Ministry of Defence is investigating claims that a soldier sliced fingers off dead Taliban fighters to keep as souvenirs. It is understood the allegations relate to a soldier from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders who was serving in Afghanistan. The claims centre on the battalion's last tour of duty in the country." BBC News - Soldier allegedly cut fingers off dead Taliban
Sounds like what the Soldiers did in Vietnam cut ears or fingers off the Viet Cong. It will happen in all wars.
Quite correct when we were in the Falklands certain members of a certain unit had a similar liking for Argentinian ears , strange things occur in the heat of Battle !!
This is a well established tradition among allied troops and sailors. Read William Manchester's wonderful book ''Goddbye Darbness '' about Manchester's experiiences in the Pacific War in World War Two as a U.S. MARINE and Manchester recounts how U.S Marines using pliers garnered for the task-used to make and wear necklaces with dead Japanese soldiers teeth which they wore round their necks. In the 1990's BBC Television showed an excellent documentary about the Kamikaze attacks on U.S. Navy aircraft carriers and other ships and U'S Navy veterans admitted -with sme retropespective embarrassment -that they used the tops of dead Japanese piolots skulls for cigarette ash trays. So as it say in the book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament''There is nothing that is new under the sun...''
Probably happens in every war, yes....but hopefully is swiftly and firmly squelched by higher-ups when the practice is noticed. There have to be standards maintained, even in battle.
Not condoning the practice at all, but at least they didn't cut their heads off while they were still alive and post the video of it on the internet. I'm not saying. I'm just saying...
I hear what you're sayin. I just think, in my mind at least, that what separates us from the enemy should not be "they're more barbaric than us, we only cut off fingers", but the fact that they take trophies off of enemy bodies whereas we don't. Period. Just my thoughts. Of course, I've never been in close combat situations, so I can't say how I would react, and really can't judge anyone who has been there.
The difference, I think, is that we are concerned with seeming barbaric and they are not. They use it as a psychological weapon. We wring our hands over whether or not a few soldiers might do something we find distasteful. Sure, we teach them how to shoot somebody in the head or stick a grenade down their pants and blow them to smithereens, but if they cut the finger off a dead man, well that's going too far! Don't get me wrong. As I said, I don't condone the practice. But, as has been famously said before, "War is all hell." It is barbaric, brutal, and just plain unpleasant. However, it is also fascinating, complex, challenging and even honorable. So, we all come to this place to discuss it. There was a reason that I put the Robert E. Lee quote in my signature line. I'm just saying, before we decide to hang our soldiers out to dry for desecrating dead bodies, let's also remember the enemy will happily do that to any of us -- literally, not just as a metaphor.
TD, I hear what you are saying and agree that you cannot compare the acts of killing a person on tape to what this soldier may have done. Still I think a greater point needs to be made. The modern western soldier goes to war not to gain empire or wealth for the homeland, but to protect that homeland from the nihlistic forces that believe it is our way or a bullet to the back of the head. We send our sons and daughters to far off dirty lands, to fight dirty wars, against people who fight dirty. To do this they, and we who send them, must have the conviction that both our cause is just and that they are not only better trained, lead and equipped, but also moraly better people. When they are forced by the actions of a few to consider if they are as bad or worse than the enemy they fight, then we have lost the right to ask them to fight in some far off land.
belasar, I don't disagree with your greater point. I would put it this way: What separates us from the enemy is that it still bothers us if even one of our soldiers does something we believe is wrong. However, I don't see that it is inconsistent to also point out that we are less barbaric than our enemy. There is a difference between First Degree Murder and desecrating a corpse. Making that distinction does not mean I am condoning the latter. Another concern I have is that we keep this story in perspective and not stray from the facts. Lets review what we know for certain: 1) There's a BBC News story about ONE soldier ALLEGEDLY taking fingers from dead Taliban fighters. 2) The defence spokesman won't comment on the investigation. Here's what we don't know: 1) We don't know if it ever happened. 2) We don't know who is making the claim. (It may even be the Taliban!) 3) We don't know the outcome of the investigation. Within 6 minutes of the OP, it was pretty much decided that it was established fact that the unnamed soldier was guilty. The proof was that it always happens in wars. I realize that the standards of proof on a forum are different that in a military investigation, but shouldn't we hold ourselves to the same high standards we expect from our soldiers?
I also agree on your greater point as I said the man may have done. Sadly though this is not the first incident of questionable acts in Afganistan. You can survive one, or even a few, but eventually you will reach a tipping point if they are not curtailed.
Not to trivialize death but the fighting men and women must keep their psychological edge. In this case: Death cards are much cleaner........ nothing sends the message, "Hey mopes - we just f#####d you over. Come and find us, if you can, we'll be waiting! Good luck, you'll need it.", like a poignant unit calling card.
It always seems to me that people are ready to believe the worst about British forces overseas, whether in combat or not, peacetime or during war. They never wait for proof just the allegation is enough to condemn, if the allegations are found false then it is just a cover up. Not long ago there was public outcry about images of an Iraqi being hooded and beaten by British troops in Iraq, the press had a field day. The army denied it but was told it was covering it up and not believed. Some judicious investigation by someone though pointed out the weapons were SA80 A1's (not used in Iraq at the time), the terrain looked wrong as did the uniforms, later on more pics were unearthed which gave a registration number for the Bedford truck the 'prisoner' was on. Turned out to have been staged by some TA soldiers in the UK. Soldier faces court martial over fake torture photos | Media | MediaGuardian Lots of people claim to have heard about the Falklands and troops collecting ears yet there was never any evidence presented and it still quoted as being true. By the way it is amazing how many people who claim they were there during the conflict, who also claim to have seen it but never reported it or stopped it. When we were in the Balkans atrocities were committed by all of the warring factions, with more than a few deliberately staged to gain public support at home and abroad. Some were even believed to have been committed on their own people for propaganda use.
MoD News - Taliban Finger Cutting Soldiers Cleared Cut for evidence...I blame no one...Procedures are now in place...Just dont let any customs guy at airport borrow yer hands for testing...
