It's a longshot, but I'm hoping you can help

I don't know if anyone will remember me, but I'm still plugging away trying to figure out some of the military history of my grandparents. I recently came into possession of two photos, both reportedly taken in Paris (as told to me by other family members). I have questions about them which I'm hoping someone might be able to help with, but since the pictures aren't the best, I'm not sure if it will work. With that said, here are the two images:

View attachment 16381

I don't know how big those will show, but you can see the largest versions I have here:

All sizes | Papa_paris | Flickr - Photo Sharing!All sizes | bridge | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I'm hoping someone might be able to tell me (1) if they recognize either location and (2) if they have any idea what type of uniform is worn by my grandfather--he's the one facing the camera (on the right).

Here's hoping this jogs someone's memory! Thanks in advance!

 

I had no clue what the patch was, but doing a Google Image search turned this up -- by dumb luck. Though somebody around here probably would have recognized the patch.

View attachment 16386

caption

A new arm patch, issued recently, will be displayed by ETO Signal Corps photographers. S/Sgt Burton D. Hartman, a signal Corps movie cameraman, is displaying the new arm patch while operating his Eyemo camera.

found here

YankReenactment-Photographers

Oh I just realized the caption refers to the patch on the cuff.

 

One clue leads to another. I still have no idea what their functions may have been in Europe after the war.



Department of the Army (DA) Staff Support
Worn from: 11 March 1942 - 17 June 1946.

found here:

Army Forces Patches History Page 1

 

Same as they would have been during the war. Staff Support / Service Forces were the backbone. They handled everything from supply (all supplies going in to Europe),to the mountains of paperwork. These were the folks that made sure everybody got what they needed and things were accounted for. Intelligence, Morale, Welfare, recreation, replacement depots, general hospitals.....tons of stuff, things well beyond division and corps level. Actaully, if something was needed (either a service or supply) at the division or corps level these are the guys that would make that happen. Their next higher command was in the United States.

 

Oh the Internet is a dangerous source.

I tend to trust Wiki more than the commercial sites.

The Army Service Forces would tend to expand the possibilities rather than narrow them. Would this be a patch of the Communication Zone (ComZ) units in Europe?

Army Service Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Hmm. My grandfather was trained as a medic and served with the (mysterious) 44th Hospital Train. This is listed on his discharge papers, and more recently, I discovered his group returning on the Queen Mary (he's #14 on the list):

View attachment 16384

The only other picture I have of him in uniform is here: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4037/4641630633_68b0452ac7_o.jpg

 

One more thing to add: My Papa was an artist and I just realized I have a picture he drew of the bridge in the photo without the damage. Here's the image, which might help place it.

View attachment 16385

 

As far as location, this does not look like Paris. Except for the area around the rail yards, Paris was not bombed out. Likely a German city. The wall they are sitting on looks like very old mason work (rough stones) -- a castle or schloss (sp?).

This bridge seems similar, but a modern version.



Theodar Heuss Bridge

The Theodor Heuss Bridge is an arch bridge over the Rhine River connecting the Mainz and the Wiesbaden. The main span of the bridge is 102.94 meters (338 ft) long. The Romans had built a bridge in this region in 27 AD, while the first arch bridge was inaugurated on 30 May 1885. The bridge was widened from 1931 to 1934 but was destroyed on 17 March 1945 by German military engineers at the end of the second World War. It was rebuilt in the years 1948 to 1950 and partially reconstructed between 1992 and 1995.

found here

MAINZ

 

I have a feeling its somewhere in Germany, but not sure on that. I'm fairly certain it isn't in Paris, mostly for the reasons you listed, but also because of the height of the buildings. My husband suggested that it might be the bridge shown here, based on the brickwork arches and metal spans. Alte Rheinbrücke zwischen Bonn und Beuel um 1920 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Also, does this look to anyone like it might be the patch on his arm? http://wardogmilitaria.com/images/7service1.JPG

Thanks, everyone, for the help! I figure if I can figure out where my grandfather was, I'll be 1/2 way to learning my grandmother's story, since they met on the 44th...lol.

 

IMO, that is definitely the bridge.

I am also confident of the Army Service Forces patch in red, white and blue.

Thanks, this has been fun. I'll do a few more searches and see...

 

When I was trying to document what shoulder patch my father wore a gentleman at the US Army Corps of Engineer told me he thought that he would have worn the Armed Forces Patch because they were one of the units not attached to a regiment or batallion. And that coincides with the info in the Wikipedia link Earthican sent. It says that the patch was worn by the, "Six Technical Services found themselves part of Army Service Forces when they were grouped in 1942: the Corps of Engineers, Signal Corps, Ordnance Department, Quartermaster Corps, Chemical Corps and Medical Corps."

And I wanted to say how great the photos are! Thanks for sharing.

(My dad actually wore the Third Army patch, which is what Dad told me, not that I didn't believe him so much, I just wanted documentation.)

 

You have probably seen this link on Hospital Trains in Europe. In a quick glance I noticed they cited that "Hospital Train No. 27" was built in England and the first used on the continent. So I am thinking your 44th Hospital Train should be Hospital Train No. 44 and refers to the equipment and not his unit. Unfortunately the article does not seem to describe how the trains were staffed.

WW2 US Medical Research Centre :: The Hospital Train in the E.T.O. 1944-1945

This link talks about medical evacuation units in general. I'll take a closer look after lunch.

Office of Medical History

 

I stand corrected. The 44th Hospital Train is how they would have referred to their unit in documentation, as this page has documents for the 23d Hospital Train.

WW2 US Medical Research Centre :: Veterans' Testimonies - Theodore R. Willits (23d Hospital Train)


I did notice this statement in the picture caption on this page:

WW2 US Medical Research Centre :: The Hospital Train in the E.T.O. 1944-1945

"Headquarters, 343d Medical Battalion, were tasked with administration and operational control of Hospital Trains, Motor Ambulance Companies, Litter Detachments, and Air Holding Units, and became responsible for the overall evacuation management."

So if NARA has nothing on the 44th HT, then I would check the records of the 343d MB.


That page also said this about its sources:

"The original historical documents were prepared by Tec 3 Lewis N. Furda (10 December 1944) and by Lt. Colonel John W. Koletty (14 October 1947). "

I found nothing online, but it might be worth checking with university libraries. Or contact the webmasters for that page.

Hope that helps.

 

Earthican - Thanks I've been researching that aspect for years and have found a few tantalizing clues, such as both their discharge papers, the roster on the Queen Mary I posted earlier and this little article about the return-

View attachment 16392

The problem is, there are no records of the 44th that I can find other than a general notation showing a few locations where it was stationed before entering the main war effort. Odds are that if you Google the 44th, you'll find me asking questions or posting what I've uncovered, because there is that tiny of an amount of information out there on it. I've tried requesting records; my grandparents' were lost in the fire and there was 'nothing showing' on the 44th. I even keep pestering Ben over at the WW2 US Medical Research Centre (though at least I share what I find with him lol). That said, I'm open to suggestions, so if you have any other ideas on how to find that train, let me know

Clementine- Glad you enjoyed looking at the pictures. Between what you and Earthican are showing me, I'm inclined to believe that it is a medical corp patch under the service division.

Thanks again!

 

Well, keep an eye out for the 343d Medical Battalion, they might have something. And they were probably under a ##th Medical Group which was under the Communication Zone (Com-Z) of the Army Service Forces.


Back on the photo of the men. At first I thought those were 1944 war ruins behind the men. But now they look like castle ruins too. They are dressed in good uniforms so it is not likely they would sit on dusty ruins to get their picture taken. I tried searching for castle ruins in the Bonn area -- no matches. But if someone more familiar with the German language (and geography) did some Image searching they might have better luck.

I can't believe your grandfather was the last to get their picture taken at such an obvious site for a photo. However there is something odd about the "stone work" over their heads. For such a wide "window" stone work would normally require an arch. The straight top of the "window" could be a wood beam -- looks kind of thin -- maybe it was fake and has since come down.

But the ruins in the background should have a match somewhere in Europe.

 

The location is a stretch, but don't the tops of the "columns" look like a match?

This is Dunluce in Northern Ireland (?).

 

Add Northern Ireland to your father's list of travels in Europe.

 

Earthican, you are full of genius! Thank you!!

 

Nicely done, E.