Attitudes toward the Japanese?

Ok where to begin...The Supreme Court has never really had a chance to actually rule on the wartime cases. In Rumsfield-Hamdi why comment when those old decisions really didn't have anything to do with what is at hand? If the DOJ was so incensed at the Commission's findings why didn't they appeal those court decisions from the early 80's? If you say it wasn't a political viable option then thatis the same as saying the offended Japanese-Americans won in the end.
The racial segregation case was brought up by me to show the beginnings of Judicial Activism by the Court that still continues to this very day. The Court at the time of Korematsu was one of Judicial restraint. Do you think you would have the rulings back then that we have had since on things like flag burning,abortion, gun possession and privacy? You can't compare the courts rulings on civil rights back then to where the court has gone since the beginning of the Warren Era.
Reparations were paid because they should have been paid frankly I'll rely on what a Federal Court said/did & ditto for the Commission then what Atena Press & Mr. Allen say. Military necessaity doesn't wash either the whole West Coast for the most part were evacuated of 110,000-120,00 Japanese but on Hawaii site of the most important/irreplaceable base of the US in the Pacific (and one that was attacked twice) only about 4,000 of 140,000 were interned.

Just how many actual arrests & convictions were there for espionage & sabotage by Japanese-Americans during the war?

 

The Supreme Court has never really had a chance to actually rule on the wartime cases.

October 31, 1988 they had a chance.

In Rumsfield-Hamdi why comment when those old decisions really didn't have anything to do with what is at hand?

Old decision? I don't think so. As I had mentioned, two Supreme Court justices did bring up the decisions in a limited way. They also happened to be two of the most politically liberal members of the court.

As Chief Justice Rehnquist has noted:
"..in time of war a nation may be required to respond to a condition without making a careful inquiry as to how that condition came about." (All the Laws But One: Civil Liberties in Wartime." P.207)

If the DOJ was so incensed at the Commission's findings why didn't they appeal those court decisions from the early 80's? If you say it wasn't a political viable option then thatis the same as saying the offended Japanese-Americans won in the end.

For political reasons. That's why politics + history = BAD HISTORY.

The racial segregation case was brought up by me to show the beginnings of Judicial Activism by the Court that still continues to this very day.

I'm not a big fan of "judicial activism".

Military necessaity doesn't wash either the whole West Coast for the most part were evacuated of 110,000-120,00 Japanese but on Hawaii site of the most important/irreplaceable base of the US in the Pacific (and one that was attacked twice) only about 4,000 of 140,000 were interned.

According to the 1940 census, ethnic Japanese made up 40% of the population of Hawaii. In California, the population was 1.6%. Military authorities had considered moving all ethnic Japanese to Molokai or the West Coast but moving 40% of the population was logistically and indeed financially impossible.

That said, there was an internment camp in Hawaii at Sand Harbor and others. Further, ethnic Japanese were not "interned wholesale" in the continental United States, either.

If the the authorities could have evacuated all ethnic Japanese from Hawaii they would have. They could not so they did not.

As an aside, Japan had a battle plan in place for the invasion of Hawaii that intended to utilize ethnic Japanese during the occupation. It was called "Eastern Operation". The plan was scrapped after Japan's defeat at Midway.

Just how many actual arrests & convictions were there for espionage & sabotage by Japanese-Americans during the war?

It was simply more efficient to intern or evacuate all ethnic Japanese. Such measures ensured against revealing sensitive intelligence in civilian courts and was 100% effective in ending espionage and the potential for sabatage from ethnic Japanese on the west coast.

If those known had been arrested how does that solve the problem with those not known? Certainly the ethnic Japanese community on the west coast was not assisting in revealing such people, unlike the ethnic Germans and Italians.

 

I find it weary in the extreme to have constant references from people of all persuasions describing this or that nation as 'better', or worse.

As an infantry soldier, you are at the mercy of three things...The terrain, your own support, and whether the service you are currently in can supply you or not with the essentials. All else is bunkum. National characteristics seem to matter more to historians than they do to the poor bastards that have to endure military service.

People will always remain just that....people. You can try to quantify what it is that makes them different, but in the end, the similarities outweigh the differences by a large margin. The best trained and supported man can still lose his mind in the thick of it, rendering all the millions of litres of ink used trying to quantify it all utterly pointless.

Human beings will always bleed, no matter what country they originate from

 

I believe I've read otherwise. All in all a more complex issue than it is usually given credit for.

 

I believe I've read otherwise. All in all a more complex issue than it is usually given credit for.

This is from the Tolan Commission

Testimony of W.J. Johnson, Captain of Police, Berkeley, Calif.

Mr. Johnson: "Mr. Chairman, up to the time that Chief Smith spoke, I found myself very much in accord with all the recommendations that have been made, up to that time. However, strictly speaking from a police standpoint, the situation with reference to the Japanese is quite different than it is with reference to the Italians and the Germans. I believe both Chief Wallman and Chief Smith will agree with me, that the police are able to get the information that we should have in order to know just what our position is in the cases of the Italians and the Germans, but we cannot get the information that we should have with reference to the Japanese...."

The Chairman: "Right there, Captain, the attorney general of California, Earl Warren, testified Saturday - I am asking this question to see if you agree with him - that he has never received a report from any of the city or county enforcement officers where a Japanese has divulged any information that would be of value."

Mr. Johnson: "Mr. Chairman, that is substantially correct. I would say that is substantially correct."

The Chairman: "They have had it from Germans and they have had it from Italians and they have had it from every other nationality, but never from the Japanese. Is that correct?"

Mr. Johnson: "Quite true. Up to within the last few days no information whatsoever, to my knowledge, has come voluntarily from the Japanese to the police. None, whatsoever....."

National Defense Migration, pages 11108, 11109

 

That's hardly defintive as it covers the knowledge of one person at one time over a specific geographical area. That's assuming he wasn't fudging to produce the result he wanted.

 

That's hardly defintive as it covers the knowledge of one person at one time over a specific geographical area. That's assuming he wasn't fudging to produce the result he wanted.


Actually it covers the knowledge of at least four people, the Attorney General of California and Police Chiefs from three different California cities. It also covers at least the entire state of California from December 7, 1941 to February 23, 1942.

Accusations of "fudging" may be your opinion but can you prove he was "fudging"? The fact is the testimony is on the record from the Attorney General and three different police chiefs. These men were in a position to know.

When the JACL testified before the Tolan Commission, they were questioned on this subject and they didn't have any suitable answers, just a lot of "I don't know".

 

I collect WWII Letter, and I have noticed that the slang word Jap, was used by almost every soldier sailor and Marine, even officers, but after the surrender of Japan, the term "the Japanese" started to be occasionally used, although still seldom. It is very clear from some letters that many US military members looked down on the Japapese.

WWII Letters

 

But the above are hardly independent are they?

It's just something you have to consider in a case like this. Certainly some as high up as the head of the FBI weren't above that sort of thing.

Then therer's the whole question of the source of anonymous tips.

Which isn't a whole lot better than "not to the best of my knowledge".

I'm not saying that givent the time it wasn't justified but the case wasn't as clear as some make it out. Indeed if it was one would have expected similar measures in Hawaii.

 

Very true. I suppose it made it a little easier to kill another human, if you tried to make them somehow less human.

WWII Letters

 

Contractions and short cuts seem to be a very prominent part of US English if not all English. Both the three letter contractions for the Japanese were used extensively during and after the war. During the war it's not clear that they had any more negative conotations than the full words. Currently some see them as derogatory though not all. I've even heard that they are used by some of those of Japanese heritage.

The above should not be taken as any sort of justification for using either of the terms. That some find them offensive is enough reason not to. Saving a few keystrokes is hardly sufficient reason to offend. We get in enough of that as it is.

 

In a letter dated 7/24/1942 Assistant Secreatary of War Mccloy talking about feeding internees hand wrote at the end of the letter...

'These people are not internees they are under no suspicion for the most part and were moved largely because we felt we could not control our own white citizens in California".

Greg Robinson,noted author sent me a copy of this letter he uncovered in 2005..

 

We occupied Japan after the war wouldn't there be written evidence of the huge spy network that MAGIC said existed? Seems to me if there was evidence the US would want it to prosecute would be traitors.

 

" In peacetime all male Japanese subjects between the ages of 17 and 40 are subject to service in the Armed Forces"

"those fit for active service, the desired number was inducted into the Army and given 2 years' training"

"Under the stress of war, many modifications have occurred. The term of enlistment has been prolonged to 3 years and more,"(HyperWar: Handbook on Japanese Military Forces [Chapter 1])

i think that alone puts an end to calling japs bad or inexperienced...

Same amount of training as the German army. And you have to consider that japs was pretty tough after fighting in China, (as were their pilots..something that greatly disadvantaged the US), which obviously meant that their army was much larger for longer, thus gaining more experience.

With benefit of hindsight we can obviously say that their Generals made some stupid mistakes. but take a look at their successes, i mean ...Russo-Japanese war... need i say more?

Whoever had a frame of mind that fighting in the pacific would be a walk-through must have received quite a shock.

 

From what I've read most of the actual spies were foreign nationals. That said I don't think there was a big push to go after spies and traitors in the post war US. Take a look at this artilce for an example:
StrategyPage.com - Combat Information Center analysis, facts and figures about military conflicts and leaders

I do remember reading and/or hearing of Americans taking things into their own hands both in regards to Germans in WWI and our opponents in WWIII. I can see the authorities not wanting this to get out of hand. Not sure how much impact it had on the relocations however.

 

I'll even go you one further, my friend.

I forgot what the term is called, but people often use words in speach that roll off the tongue easier than others. When we were in the field, 90% of the time when refering to the Japanese, the word would be "Nips." Nip is a shortcut for the mouth, even, instead of making the hard "J" sound in "Jap," in conjunction with the "A" in Jap coming from the back of your mouth. With Nip, every sound is in the front of your mouth. Try it. You'll see.

sm

 

Go to this website about the diary of Canadian Prime Minister Mackenzie King in a conversation with President Rooslevelt on 6/25/1942 . Fill in the date as shown on the page then go to page 8 about middle ways down the page. Where Rooslevelt states something to the effect that..

He thought the Japanese were foolish in thinking we would be much affected by the attacks they were making on the Pacific Coast . that they would only serve to strengthen public will not undemine it"

or rather something like that just read it and seems to indicate he wasn't too concerned about an invasion. Of course this is Prime Minister's King's diary but...
Another thing is that the following camps opened after 6/25/1942 and the Battle of Midway..Granada,Colorado(8/22/42)...Heart Mountain, Utah(8/12/42)...Jerome,Arkansas(10/6/42)...Rohem,Arkansas(9/18/42)...Minidoh ,Idaho(8/10/42)....Topa,Utah(9/10/42)
....Gila River,Arizona)7/20/42)... So the President of the United States was commenting to the effect that he wasn't too concerned about a possible invasion at the same time the bearuracracy of the internment movement was just only getting started.
Search - The Diaries of William Lyon Mackenzie King - Library and Archives Canada

 

Since this thread is about attitudes towards the Japanese. I thought some might be interested in reading a letter written by somebody who was there in November 1945.



This letter was written by a Lieutenant who was in the 8th Army, as part of the Occupation of Japan, WWII, November 7, 1945. From the letter…..

Dear Mother and Daddy,

We didn’t make Tokyo today because our transportation fell through, but we will probably leave tomorrow.
I spent most of yesterday afternoon and today just wandering around looking. As you can guess, I’m all eyes and ears, with my head rotating around and around on my shoulders, getting a big kick out of everything. I went down into what used to be the business and shopping district. It is really a mess, as is the rest of the town, except for the area in which we live. I probably gave you the wrong impression the other day when I said the dock area wasn’t very heavily damaged and it isn’t , but brother that is the only place. You can’t appreciate or realize the consequences of such utter destruction until you actually see it, at least I couldn’t. In the whole downtown area there is only about one building left just a shell. Everything is at a stand still as far as business goes. There is nothing to sell, and if there was, there is no place to sell it. About all the people do is wander around. The army is fixing up the sewage system and wire system, also clearing up some of the debris here and there. The Japs do all the common labor, while the Americans supervise. After living through such bombing, I don’t see how the Japanese people can believe anything other than the fact that they were defeated. Like I said yesterday, Yokohama was a very modern city as far as it’s buildings go. They were all new, and modernistic in design. There were no sky scrappers, with most of the buildings being only 3 stories high. Like everything else in Japan, including the people, Yokohama was an earnest, but a cheap and poor attempt of copying our architecture. The buildings, which are left, and the parts of those damages, but still standing, are nice looking, but are an engineering sham. They are made of concrete reinforced with a wire nit a little thicker than fencing wire. The concrete walls vary from ¾ to 1 ½ inches thick, and that is all there is. I can’t imagine how the things stood up even in peacetime. No wonder there were no skyscraper, the little rats couldn’t’ afford it. The concrete walls are finished on the outside with a coat of stucco ingeniously put on so it looks like granite building stones, etc. that is absolutely how the place is made, because I measured the walls myself. That isn’t for just one building, but for all. You can appreciate wheat that type of structure meant when you figure that we didn’t drop any block busters on the cities, yet they are flat. All fo the bombs were very light compared to the 12 and 16 ton ones that were dropped on Germany. The foreign countries and corporation buildings are different, and are very nice.
The British consulate is about the most elaborate. We have the next best, which is a little larger than the British. Ours is a pure white stucco colonial building, built in 1931 which looks very neat and trim compared to the surrounding ones. The Mil. Gov’t office is in the German consulate, which, compared to the British and ours, isn’t so hot. The 8th Army Hq. is in the customs Bldg. which is very large, and one of the nicer Jap buildings.
There is absolutely no private transportation. There are a few street cars, and the sorry trains. The people walk or ride bicycles. Each carries a little bundle in which he carries his dinner, for there is no place to eat and he can’t walk all the way to his home. Oh yes, they eat rice, and use chop sticks. There were some eating in the park this morning. They don’t use the sticks as deftly as point would have you believe, and it seems to be more of a process of holding the plate to the mouth and raking the food in. They are all very dirty and unkempt. They seem to be very smart, and I must admit, understand and speak English much better than I could ever hope to speak Japanese. Pretty nearly all of them from the knee high kids on up can say hell, good morning, goodbye, than you, OK, etc., using them properly.
Well, enough of hat for today. I hope you all are interested in all the muddle of stuff I write, for as you can tell, it is all very interesting to me, and I wouldn’t have missed this trip for the world.
This army has really gotten set up fast. I sure wish I had known the conditions here and that I was coming here, for I could have saved bringing a lot of things. For instance, I brought enough soap, shaving cream, tooth paste, razor blades, etc. to last me for a year. Besides that I brought a lot of extra clothes, etc. that I didn’t intend to use anytime soon. Over here the army has good Pxs and clothing stores where you can get anything you want. Besides that they give all officers one wool uniform, field jacket, gloves, sweater, and short jacket which most officers wear in place of the blouse. Boy I really look sharp in it, just like the heard waiter.
I brought some stamps in the Jap post office today. I walked in and motioned to the clerk that I wanted 4 of everything he had. I got them too, a whole hand full for only 2/3 of a dollar. I thought someday I or somebody else might like them for a collection.
Don’t be surprised someday if you get a cablegram. The Japs will send them for you for 2/3 of a dollar. Of course they are code type, and will probably be all backwards and mixed up when you get it.
I am enclosing 1 yen I thought you might like to have. It is equal to 1/15 of a dollar, or 6.666 cents. It isn’t army made, but the real thing. Got it in change at the Yokohama post office, real Jap stuff. Oh yes, as the denomination goes up, so the size increases, a 200 yen note is about half the size of this sheet of paper, much larger than our paper currency. 200 yen really isn’t’ much, only $13.33, so you can imagine the wad of paper you have to carry. There are no metal coins to speak of, and everything below a yen is still paper.
I hope you all are fine. I cam doing fine, the food is good, and I generally mange to look out for myself. Tell Pal there are very few dogs, but those that are still left, look like the universal variety of dog, and don’t bark in Japanese.

WWII Letters