Bombing of Dresden--and for what?

And again you say "Staffenburg"

 

Sorry... couldnt resist one last Staffenburg.

From now on it will be Stauffenburg!

I promise!

 

I hope not TheRatBaron

 

I had a brother 19, K.I.A.German 88s zeroed in on his location. Here is somthing to smile about
Kellogs All Bran Cereal

Kellogg’s All-Bran and WW2
I have a friend who was WW2 tail gunner in a B-24 in England. He had a hearty breakfast of Kellogg's All-Bran before a mission over Germany. On the mission the All-Bran started to work. He was not going to fill his pants so he left his tailgunner position and went to the bomb bay doors and relieved himself. When they got back to their base he really got chewed out by the pilot. All I can think about is the German soldier looking up and plop! he gets it right in the face and said American secret weapon but it stinks.


No More Milk
This same friend, B-24 tail gunner ,returning from a mission and flying low. He was told to shoot up all hay stacks because German’s hide there tanks under them. He comes up-on a hay stack so he starts shooting at it and just as he started shooting, a cow comes walking around the corner of the hay stack. Bang, bang no more milk, no more cow.


knew this B-17 Pilot, pre war vintage, at Clark Field. Old Bernard Tapps was his name.

One day I asked him a stright forward question, that I have often wondered about.

The Night before the crew is in the club jucing up. Well next day when you are flying, and guts rumble, and you have a choice, is it a wet or dry fart. If wet, are you going to shit your pants or try and hold it until you get back.

Old Bernie says, hell that was no problem, open bomb bay doors drop your drawers and shit your guts out. What about paper,, old Bernie says when you spray like that no need for it. But the Ground crew, bomb loaders are not to happy with shit spray on aft bulkhead. I laughed so hard I cried.

I miss the Old Guy, he was such a character. The Nose Art on his B-17 was Tapps for the Japs. A Old Cleveland, Ohio Lad.

Art a long ago air man

 

As has been said, counterfactual history is VERY difficult to work with. Consider the impact a tiny change could have, a sort of butterfly effect scenario, I just don't think we can predict events with any accuracy.

 

Can you prove it?</font>[/QUOTE]As promised:

On October 21st 1942 Luftwaffe units performed the deportation of 1.000 Jews to Belzec and shot some 400 to 500 more at the little Polish town of Szczebrezeszyn.

On August 6th - 8th 1944 Jews from Kaiserwald concentration camp in Latvia, were transferred by sea to Stutthof camp, in Poland. Many thousands more (many of whom died in the trip) would follow from Narva, Revel and Klooga latter that month. It is not hard to tell that the Kriegsmarine beared the responsibility of the transport, and the deaths…

 

Fried, Kriegsmarine or Handelsmarine ? there is a difference. there were many merchant ships not really under the authority of the German Kriegsmarine control that were used for miscellaneous transport duties, many not suited or having the time to take away needed warships, materials and men.

One of the cases of course is the cruise liners aka red cross transport ships sunk in the Baltic in 1945. W. Gustloff, Goya, Steuben, Cap Arcona, etc.......sad

 

I've just came back from Dresden & have been reading frederick taylor book Dresden
When you find out that Dresden was a main rail link to the east & western fronts & that by bombing it would help stop the troops movements & that it had a big Armenment industry
I think it was Justified
When you read how badly they treated the jews & how many prisoners were killed in the prison then you see it in a different light

Ps i've not read thought this thread yet

 

If that is the case were the Allied planners thinking saving Allied troops lives? And if no bombing what were the operational ground plans for the area?


From my point of view it's easy to slam it in the cold light of day but what was done was done and for better or worst it's now part of our history.

Another way to look at it is, what would you have done if your were Harris? As none of us were there, there can be only one answer, no idea.

Dresden was a terrible act so late in the war, I think of it as delivering Hitler a message. You have lost the war you have the power to stop it. As we all know Hitler would not surrender and when the Russians were hour or so away from his Bunker Hitler blew his brains out.

 

also the BC had a week long triud on the eastern side of the Reich at night, all forms of jamming, mossie intruders were active and BC was very effective at times during this stint to keep the LW nf's at bay, Dresden was part of this action, what has happened has happened and there is no turning around. Sources stating for the Allies that Dresden was a huge industry/electronic hub at this late stage of the war were incorrect but even with the tech sources of the time the Allies could not always be on top of every movement the Reich was committed too. Due to the obvious presence of Soviet encursion the German war industry was moved westward in pieces before the fateful bombings by both BC and the US 8th AF

 

Im glad to see this thread still survives because.......when I originally posted this I had just been fresh in watching I think a 2 hour Doc on the history channel which was hosted by a guy with the name of: Arthur? Kent.

Anyway, this documentary made it known (or tried to make it seem) like that there were little or no Flak units defending the City having been shipped to the Eastern Front or elsewhere - whereever they were needed.

Anyway, THC made it seem as if there were zero German units in or around the City for it's defense. Also, they were practically demonizing the Allies for doing what had to be done. Now, I then did not and still do not, like the fact that the raids were timed just so, so that after one raid, the emergency personnel, Civilians etc, would be out in full force and be cought in the second air raid. This IMO, was nothing but a pure act of murder - as they say-a murder raid.

 

well Carl the LW NF air defenses were sent to the wrong area of Germany leaving the RAF to do it's job, so bluffed out by the BC jammers - they did their job in a very efficient manner tha few claims were made, maybe 5-6 bombers

we each have our own thoughts about this of course....... I can think of a couple of other raids with the same consequence over the Reich as well as England

 

I had watched a documentary on Dresden and it indicated that several civilian centres were selected to hamper Troop Movements as mentioned by a previous poster, the reasoning in bombing Dresden was made because it had one vital aspect it had a major road running through it, communication hubs (Transport Hubs) were selected and in any case any town or city with a decent road running through or near it was selected for treatment.

Another purpose was terror tactics, exactly like the incendiary attacks on Tokyo, it was also aimed at killing as many civilian as possible, to demoralise the troops on the front lines.

 

The bombing of Dresden was requested by the Red Army when their salient was 60-70 miles away. It maintained an unassaulted rail head at a time when the Third Reich was withdrawing units from one front to fight on another.

The creation of the Dresden myth (ie: it's the worse and most complete amount of destruction delivered by aerial bombardment) was originated by Goebbels, adopted by the USSR as an example of the "inherent aggression" of imperialism, packaged and sold by David Irving in his book from the sixties and most recently adopted by the extreme far right of German politics to assist in the denial of, or the reduction of blame for, the holocaust.

The roots for this lie in it's location, for there have been some German towns and cities which suffered far greater, and many more non-German targets which have suffered more damage. However Dresden was wildly pro-Nazi, by 1935 it was totally supportive to Nazi ideals. Being not only within the Nazi heartland but also at the time aggression broke out out of bomber range it never developed a public air raid shelter system, and when it came to air defence even withdrew units prior to the attack.

So you're in charge of Bomber Command and an order comes from on high to bomb a city with no air defence, no shelters and the Russian army 60 miles away and advancing. For me the question isn't "And for what?" it's more "How much will folk side with Goebbels in 70 years time?"

Try;
Air Force Magazine
DRESDEN

 

Only one of these ships had ever been a hospital ship, and that was the Wilhelm Gustloff in 1939-40, but she was converted into an accommodation ship for the U-boat arm of the Navy after the Norway campaign.

 

In the first Allied air raid on Dresden in Oct 1944, by 30 B-17's of the USAAF, ten of the bombers were damaged by flak, but by the time of the second USAAF raid in January 1945, the flak defences had started to be transfered to protect oil installations

 

I think your right Erich
The same happened at Coventry
Both sides new what they were doing dropping big bombs to blow up water mains & delayed bombs to take out emergency personnel

 

You could say the same about the fire bombing of Tokyo was a murder raid to
What did not help in Dresden was no lack of air raid shelters
I think my out look of Dredsen changed after reading frederick Taylor book on how the Germans burn down the synagogue in 1938 & how badly the jews were treated

 

The warning signs were there after this raid with 270 Germans died but they did not let on about the death toll
In the height of the Blitz the daily death toll averaged 250

 

And speaking of the Wilhelm Gustloff: I have a cap tally from that ship. It was cut down to fit into someones photo album.