Bombing of Dresden--and for what?

Well, how would Steve feel if a muslim extremist refers to the WTC as a legitimate target to break the resistance of the Americans? The WTC was obviously a "great trunk route" in the American economic system and whats "only" 5000 deads against Hamburg or Dresden, right?

Don't get me wrong. I am against all violence, military or not, that targets civilians. This includes the Dresden and New York tragedy.

 

Hi Knight and Timo: Knight; at no point in my last post did I say that 25,000 dead was okay. I said that it was less than Hamburg casualties so please dont appologize for me, I made no insensitive or derogatory remarks about Germans or Germany, please read the post again. Timo, the WTC bombing was not done as an act of war or during a war. Guys, you both apparently think I am condoning the bombing of Dresden and its casualties of 25,000 dead which I am not. Yes, on Feb 14 the RAF BC hit Dresden with 772 planes, yes for some reason the city area was their target, HE bombs on target 1477.7 tons, Incediary bombs on target 1181.6 tons, total tonnage 2659.3 tons, that is alot for one city but it wasnt near what some other German cities suffered. Knight: Dresden was bombed 8 times during the war, only 1 raid even came close to 1,000 planes and that was the Feb 2 raid of 772 planes by the RAF BC. Dont use 1,000 plane raids as a standard bombing practice for Dresden or any other city. If you have done any research you will find that Dresden was a target that would have to be hit eventually. "Dresden was, in 1945, known to contain at least 110 factories and industrial enterprises that were legitimate military targets, and were reported to have employed 50,000 workers in arms plants alone. Among these were dispersed aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabric Goye and Co.); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); the great Zeiss Ikon A.G., Germany most important optical goods manufacturer; and, among others, factories engaged in the production of electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel A. G.), gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke), and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler). "Specific military installations in Dresden in Feb 1945 included barracks and hutted camps and at least one munitions storage depot." "Dresden was protected by anitaircraft defenses, antiaircraft guns and searchlights, in anticipation od Allied air raids against the city. The Dresden air defenses were under the Combined Dresden (Corps Area IV) and Berlin (Corps Area III) Luftwaffe Administration Commands)". Also, Germanys railway system was far from being destroyed. I have posted enough here that anybody will tell you that I would be the last one to offend any race no matter what. I have stated some facts that all, no more no less, so please dont try to paint me as someone who supports the bombing of civilians.

[ 27 July 2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Steve ]

 

A tricky thing to say. it would justify a second attack on an American target as Bush declared war against terrorism.

But anyway, we misunderstood what you said. Sorry for that. Its clear now.

 

Hi Timo: It would justify a second attack considering Bush's statement, but the original attack was not done as an act of war or during a war.

 

Steve: we're talking February, 1945!
The war was practically over. The existence of factories at this point is academic, as Germany lacked the raw materials and fuel to produce anything. Further, Zeiss may have made a few binoculars in '45, but, who was left to use them?
The Germans are always (still) held to account for the crimes of the Nazi Party, but the British and Americans are extremely reluctant to step up to the plate and admit where they were wrong.
File this under, "History is written by the Winners." Instead, we bend over backwards to establish this mythological history of the war. The story of millions of Japanese civilians ready to kill themselves in kamakaze attacks against invading American troops--is a MYTH. A fabrication with no basis AT ALL in reality, created to justify the atomic attacks and the fire bombing of Japanese cities.
Another Myth is the success of the Allied Strategic Bombing initiative. It wasn't successful. German military production peaked in September, 1944--well after we started pulverizing their industrial centers. Strategic bombing was a complete failure: it wasn't until we captured German raw materials (primarily oil) that industrial production ground to a halt.
Further, Allied planes were very specific about what factories to hit and what not to hit.
German Vacuum was a subsidiary of General Electric, and so, their factories were spared. General Analine and Film (GAF e.g. Viewmasters) was a subsidiary of I. G. Farben, so, their factories were avoided. I'm researching a collection of photography right now: about 500 negatives from a construction battalion of the Army Air Corps, from Normandy until end of war.
500 pieces of 4x5 sheet film--and not ONE is made by Kodak. It's all AGFA. Fancy that. How do you suppose the U.S. Army was getting AGFA filmstock in 1944?
It's fine to talk about tanks and planes and all that; but, when you get talking about multi-national corporations and the Big Money behind the war machines, that's when things get really ugly.
Charles Higham's "Trading with the Enemy" is a good place to start. Recently republished under the Barnes & Noble logo.

 

I suggest you go to something like www.dresden.de or write the German toruist board for more information. There are some so-called facts broadcasted here that are quite incorrect, and I'm not going to even bother arguing my points. If Dresden was a prime military juncture as had been claimed(which it was not), why wasn't there chief flak defences for the city as well as at least one night fighter flügplatz close to the area ? No one can answer this because the city was one of a place of culture. 25,000 lost souls is quite a bit too low. More apt to believe upwards of 100,000 plus as there were many refugees retreating from the revenge of the Soviets. The twin bombings of Dresden and the strafing of innocent civilians along arterial roads was one to upset the already depressing moral of the population of eastern Germany.....Harris with the agreement of the US heavy bomber commanders were to perform a so called coup de ......eliminate the storng will of the Germans; well it did nothing short of making them more resolute.

E

 

And this is what makes the Sept 11 attack wrong. Had it been carried out during a declard war, then the WTC would be a legimate target to damage the enemies economic inferstruture. In just the same way that bombing factories or the sinking of Merchant ships in WW2 was an acceptable form of war.
I think the problem many have with Dresden is timing. Germany was almost on its knees, and though a an other time it mayhave been a legitimate target, what purpose did it serve to flaten the city at this tage of the war.

 

Knight: You make it sound like the Wermacht was rolling over and playing dead. The factories, regardless of the state of the German army were still producing items for war. Also, precision bombing was not that good that they could miss entire factories when they wanted to just because there was American interest in the plant. As far as the Strategic Bombing being ineffective, I suggest you talk to Allied ground troops that will tell you otherwise. Also if you think a US invasion of Japan would have been better than the A-bombs you had better consider this, Allied estimates are over one million dead and wounded, thats just for the Allies and doesnt include Japanese casualties. Ask any Marine or soldier if those are acceptable odds. Hi Erich: I dont know why there wasnt a squadron of night fighters over Dresden, maybe they had been pulled back to defend Berlin, I dont know. Total tonnage dropped on Dresden was 7100.5 tons with 25,000 dead while Hamburg was hit by 39687.6 tons and the amount of casualties announced by Berlin was 41,000 dead. Now, considering the vast difference in tonnage, how would Dresden casualty list climb higher than that of Hamburg?

[ 27 July 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Steve ]

 

Steve :

I am not sure where you are getting your sources. I have info direct from civilians from Dresden as well as relatives that were living in the Pfalzland that fateful night and day and got strafed by US P-51's. I've been studying Dresden and the why's and how's for over 35 years. There sare several books that have been published and for the most part thatey are average. The scope of casualties of Dresden, hambug and Berlin will be discussed after we are all gone from this planet. A somewhat interesting discussion developed along these pretenses at: www.thirdreichforum.com

as for industry there was nothing unless the Allies wanted to blow away and shatter the Meissen ceramics factory..... ! Maybe the Frauenkirche was just too plain pretty and needed to be leveled ? !

E , well I've said enough and this thread just ended for me.....Tschüß

 

Hi Erich: I dont have first hand knowledge such as yours so I have to rely on books and the Historical Analysis of the 14-15 Feb 1945 Bombings of Dresden which was published USAF Historical Div \ Research Studies Institute. I wont argue with firsthand views because its not possible so I rest my case where it is. But you have to admit, the Feb 14-15 bombing of Dresden makes for an interesting discussion.

 

Steve :

It still comes down to the question of why ? !

Dresden as you can till imbitters me deeply especially with US fighter pilots that flew on this day and admitted to me what there mission was. The historical anaylsis may not even mention this as it only reveals only so much. But of course this is always the case with all documents. Why we must cross reference and of course ask many questions. A visit to the national archivs in the Staes or Freiburg BA/MA are excellent sources for starts......

discuss we must !

E

 

Steve:

The Air Force Research Institute?
I'm expecting a little impartial, accurate historical research, and you're giving me the Air Force Research Institute?
You're insistant on boiling everything down to military categories.
The Dresden bombing was political. The decision was made by the politicians, Churchill, specifically. The "military" excuse, given by the Prime Minister was to cause civilian panic , flood the streets with refugees, and block the German retreat. It had nothing to do with industrial production or railway lines. But, this was just the excuse. The military was against it: especially Eisenhower.
Churchill and others wanted to make a demonstration of strength to the Russians (and leave them with a destroyed city to occupy after the war remember that Dresden occured right after Yalta: that's what it was all about.
The Russians (who took Dresden,) did not want our bomber support. Churchill wanted to blow some more things up before the war ended.
Do you think that the Air Force Research Institute is going to tell you that? (Who are they, anyway?)
The Germans stopped counting their dead after 35,000, but the actual total was over 135,000.
Here's an accurate, concise description, from

"Jerusalem Institute for Western Defence
Its original Advisory Council included General George J. Keegan, General Daniel O. Graham, Ambassador Charles Lichenstein (of the Heritage Foundation), Professor Eugene V. Rostow, Professor Charles MacDonald and Dr. Max Singer (all from USA), Admiral Rene M. Bloch (France) and Dr. Uzi Landau, Ambassador Meir Rosenne, Prof. Yuval Ne'eman, General Joshua Sagui and General Rechav'am Ze'evi (all from Israel)."
--I found this after a 3-minute web search, and it describes the situation better than I can. Written in 1963:

http://www.westerndefense.org/bulletins/July-01.htm

per your other comments:
"As far as the Strategic Bombing being ineffective, I suggest you talk to Allied ground troops that will tell you otherwise."
--That's tactical bombing, not strategic bombing. That part of the air war was very successful.
"Also if you think a US invasion of Japan would have been better than the A-bombs you had better consider this, Allied estimates are over one million dead and wounded"
--Allied POLITICIANS estimated One mil dead. the military knew in July that the Japanese were trying to surrender, that this was inevitable. The decision to drop the bomb was NOT made by the military, in fact, I challenge you to find ONE American military leader of that time who supported dropping the atom bombs.
the real history of warfare--especially modern warfare-- involves politicians, industrialists, bankers, as well as the military. By 1945, we were much more concerned with the Soviet Union than we were with the remnants of the Wehrmacht.

 

Despite 'not wanting Bomber support', it is documented that General Antonov, with the personal backing of Stalin, insisted, at Yalta, that Berlin, Leipzig and Dresden were bombed as soon as possible...

 

martin:
this author says differently.
I'll have to ask for your sources

 

No problem, Knight.
For the whole scenario of Churchill, Yalta, Harris, Portal, Anonov and the question of Dresden see : -

Denis Richards 'The Hardest Victory' London 1994 pp270-271 citing Webster & Frankland, The Strategic Air Offensive Against Germany Vol III HMSO 1961.

Henry Probert 'Bomber Harris' London 2001 pp 317-321 citing Martin Gilbert 'Churchill', Richards 'Portal of Hungerford' and interview with Captain Hugh Lunghi, interpreter to British Chiefs of Staff at Yalta.

 

You might also like to update yourself with the most recent discussion of the Dresden death toll in 'Telling Lies About Hitler'( London, 2002 ) by Richard Evans, expert witness at the Irving trial. See the whole of Chapter 5, 'The Bombing of Dresden'.

As mentioned before, history has accepted Irving's theorizing of '135,000' dead based on a single document which has conclusively been proved to be a fake. This was the TB47 form giving a figure of 68,650 cremated in the Dresden Altmarkt. In fact, it was 6,865 - the '0' was added later. Irving accepted this as proven in 1966 but failed to cite in later editions of 'The Destruction of Dresden', a significant factor in his loss of lawsuit against Lipstadt/Penguin Books in the High Court.

See also Gotz Bergander, 'Dresden im Luftkrieg ; Vorgeschichte - Zerstorung - Folgen ( Koln 1977, revised 1985 ).

 

Martin,
Thanks for the biblio: some interesting texts there.

Steve,
The irony of these things is that soldiers tend to support their wartime politicians right-or-wrong; whereas the politicians will hang the military guys out to dry on a moment's notice if it serves their political purposes.

 

Like I said, Knight, no problem.
The fact is, the 'Dresden' controversy has become a political 'hot potato' in this country and there has been a lot of very ill-informed comment, particularly in the 'popular press'.
This has caused much anger and upset among surviving bomber crewmen.

As an Associate Member of the Bomber Command Association, I have tried to read everything I can find about Dresden. The Irving Trial produced some very interesting, and I would think definitive, analysis of the whole question.

 

[ 30. October 2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

 

Hi Knight and Friedrich: Knight, I back your last post 100%. The soldier gets the job done and then takes the fall for doing so. Hallo Friedrich my friend, Knight stated earlier in one of his posts that by that stage of the war Dresden was beyond bombing and personally I would agree but as I stated earlier, by that stage in the war, bombing had taken on a whole new look. Any town that was still producing war materials was being subject to increased bombing in order to destroy production totally even at the risk of larger civilian casualties. I wont argue whether it was political or not since I wasnt there and there are enough people who will do that for me.