Bombing of Dresden--and for what?

not sure why I keep replying to this thread.......

for what it's worth, buy the book ?

www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p247_Lutton.html

~E~

 

Uuuuuuuhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm Erich, thanx for the link, I was not really aware of the background of this book...

No, this is *not* the weltanschauung I want to identify with.

 

IHR = Institute for Historical Review...

You'll excuse me for not holding books recommended by the site in high esteem. It's not particularly hard to figure out the agenda of people that write the Holocaust as the "Holocaust" and the Jewish question as the "Jewish Question".

Other "fine" publications offered by the site:
- "The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses" (previous title "Debunking the Genocide Myth")
- "The Myth of the Six Million"
- "The Zionist Terror Network"
- "Forensic Examination and Engineering Report on the alleged Nazi gassing facilities at Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek"

Some leaflets offered:
- "A Look at The 'Powerful Jewish Lobby" New!
- "Liberating America from Israel" New!
- "The Holocaust: Let's Hear Both sides"



[ 06. November 2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Heartland ]

 

Although I admire many of McKee's books ( eg : 'Caen : Anvil Of Victory ' , ' Race For The Rhine Bridges ' ) his Dresden book is now regarded as being unfortunately too influenced by the work of Irving.

I've mentioned it before on this thread, but anyone who seriously wishes to study the subject of Dresden and to be informed of the most recent analysis of the historiography surrounding the whole subject cannot afford to be without Richard Evans' book : -

http://www.versobooks.com/books/cdef/ef-titles/evans_r_hitler.shtml

The book contains a complete chapter concerning Dresden and is, to say the very least, deeply thought-provoking.

[ 06. November 2003, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

 

thanks for the link martin, in case of the documents supplied by the Dresden historical society during the war. Much that had been archived was destroyed in the dual bombings and in fact by the first of February 1945 much of interest to the regime was being transfered out of the major cities enroute to Berlin and we do know of at least three heavy trucks that were vaporized with much useful documentation to reserachers during heavy bombing/artillery shellings. Case in point is a huge cache of documents concerning Luftwaffe activites during the summer through winter of 1944. It just isn't there .........

~E ñÆ╔

 

an old thread started as we have done last year....on TRF.

Dresden bombing ? and post liberation, etc.

www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=33480&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=dresden&start=0

some interesting thoughts.......

~E

 

Here are my comments to these quotes from this other thread: Germans invited to D-day celebration before it's more hi-jacked than it is already.

First, those 'laughing-boys' have provided us with the free world we live in. Second, even if the deaths of innocent civilians is a tragic event, it was not tragic the death of then enemy soldiers and workers, destruction of military infaestructure and communication lines, thus reducing the enemy's war capabilities.

Correction. As stated above, to severely damage the enemy's capabilities of waging and making war by destroying logistics, industries, killing its workers, leaving them homeless, breaking their morale and making them reluctant to go on with the war.

Roughly half million Germans. But I think you're forgetting more names: Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Khárkov, Antwerp, etc.

I'd like to see it too. But there's not such a source, because that figure is completely false.

This is one of the wisest - even if harsh - remarks I've read in a long time.

 

Any soldiers that were in Dresden were wounded men who would never again fight. Any workers that were there (which was mostly comprised of allied POWs) were made to do things such as build VIP's bomb shelters. Also Dresden was of little military importance and so it hardly lessened the Germans war capabilities. Maybe if they had hit the railroad station or the rail lines, I could agree with you..but that is not the case.
At the time it was attacked Dresden was full of refugees fleeing from the raping/pillaging of the russians. And in some cases..russians themselves. Instead of attacking the barely important rail station, they purposly attacked the hospitals, which were clearly marked,and the centre of Dresden, where many buildings were all packed close together.

Killing permanantly out of action soldiers, allied POWs, refugees, and innocent german women and children, does not affect a nations war capabilities.

Bomber Harris should have been forced to live through half of what 100,000 people died in, in Dresden.

 

This notion that the RAF deliberately destroyed hospitals is laughable. No single buidling is clearly marked to a bomber flying at 20,000ft in pitch darkness, and even if bomber crews could identify individual buildings, the technology of the day made it impossible to pick them out for deliberate destruction.

 

Ah, I see Gordon has beaten me to it.

 

My pleasure, mate!

Regards,
Gordon

 

Yes, theoretically — by the military thought of the time — it would break their will to go on with the war, which, by the way was still a hard, very bloody one.

Not to mention that it was necessary to destroy the whole city's infaestructure to make it unable for defense, opening the way for the Red Army.

I lost some relatives that night and a lot of history was made ashes. But it was part of the price we all had to pay for the world we live in.

 

...Do you really think it is that hard to target a hospital? They knew what the city looked like, they had maps and layouts and whatnot, so they obviously knew where the bombers were attacking.

The Mosquitos went in and kept the target lit up with red flares, the target being the citys interior, where everything such as hospitals were located.

The city was not going to put up any resistance to the Russians, what would it have to do so? It didn't even have any AA cover, unless you count the four 20mm AA guns, which coulden't even hit the 4-engined bombers.

 

Hello Martin Bull,

You made reference to David Irving's book on the war crime that is Dresden.

Can you expand, here, why you consider his exemplary work as somehow 'unfortunate'?

 

Thank you, NoName, for finally revealing to this Forum your true beliefs and influences. Or, to put it in the vernacular, revealing your true colours.

'David Irving's exemplary work.....'

That statement is so incredible that I've got to write it again.

' David Irving's exemplary work......

Well now.

Have you heard of the High Court ? Have you heard of 'David Irving v. Penguin Books And Deborah Lipstadt' ? Have you heard of, and even if you had, could you be bothered to read the following books ? ; -

'The Irving Judgment' (ISBN 0-14-029899-1)
' The Holocaust On Trial - History, Judgment and the David Irving Libel Case'( ISBN 1-86207-397-X )
'Telling Lies About Hitler - The Holocaust, History and the David Irving Trial' ( ISBN 1-85984-417-0 ).

Evans' book in particular contains a minute dissection of Irving's 'The Destruction Of Dresden' upon which the proving of the defendant's case hinged.

I await with interest to see you cite your sources for your arguments.

 

G'day

The USAAF criteria for a succesful raid was achieved if only ONE single bomb fell closer to the targetpoint than five miles. Not very accurate I would say. That's why they used saturation bombing to get more damage to the target, more planes mean more chance of hitting the target.This also means the " Colateral Damage (sp?)" is very big. Only big target's can be hit.

And NoName, revealing your source shows what reading wrong books leads to. Irving is a criminal in several country's for writing lies. Talk about bending history, Irving is the living proof.

Popski

[ 10. January 2004, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Popski ]

 

Panzer,
Exactly WHY would the Allied air forces "deliberately target hospitals"?.
And yes, from 20,00 feet, in flak, with night fighters always hovering, I would think it was an incredibly difficult thing to do.

 

Hang on a minute!
Cast your mind back to when the Germans bombed our Towns and Cities. Many of them raised to the ground, It was fine then, to come over here, kill and maim our men, women, and children by the thousands. The Germans called that "The good time"

It was fine to rain buzz bombs down, and fire rockets at undefended areas, that was ok, let us kill a few thousand Britain’s! We Germans can flatten Coventry and destroy it completely. That's fine....

WE can murder, torture, kill people by the millions in concentration camps, all over Germany and the occupied lands.

That is just great! We Germans can starve women and children to death. Then, for a bit more fun we can burn the women and children alive in a church at Orador after killing all the men folk. Enjoyable!

Then as a special treat, we Germans, think to ourselves? Let’s go to Tulle where we can hang 99 resident males from the towns lamp posts. We Germans enjoy this, for we have been killing and maiming all the way across Europe and Russia. Our bestial behaviour is beyond normal expectancy. "WE are Germans"! And it is OK for us to do these things!

Then, we can have massed Nazi meetings where we called for "Total War" I recall the shout, “Do you want total war? the audience screamed back Sieg Heil”, thrusting their arms in the Nazi salute YA, YA, Their greatest desire. TOTAL WAR” Ya!

They murdered our prisoners. American, Canadian, and British, in cold blood. Ask any of the allied Veterans they will agree.

The bombing of Dresden pales into insignificance compared with the millions of murders committed by the Germans.

After yearning, and crying out for TOTAL WAR, when they had a little bit of TOTAL WAR returned, they all start crying, how cruel! Those people bombed us, how dare they do that? Then to claim it was murder is just about as daft as it gets. The saying “Crocodile tears” comes to mind. Has anyone here counted the number of Concentration camps? OH” by the way, have a look how we Germans made some very attractive lamp shades from the human skin of those we murdered.
Sapper.

 

Brian,
I couldn't agree more.
My mother's cousin was "shot trying to escape" from a POW camp; my old man was a War Reserve Constable the night the luftwaffe hit Clydebank, and found himself recovering corpses. His Aunt was bombed out by an aerial mine a few days before.
I find it extremely hard to sympathise with Dresden.
Regards,
Gordon

[ 10. January 2004, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]