Could the Western allies have won it alone?

There were already some naval incidents, althought not in similar scale like in WW1. USS Reuben James, destroyer escorting convoy was sunk by U-552 31 of october 1941.

I believe Hitler declared war to the US because he wanted to support Japan.

Discussion about US involvement to WW2:
http://p069.ezboard.com/falltheworl...essageRange?topicID=885.topic&start=1&stop=20

 

true - though Himmler would probably have done so.

 

Or Goering, who I believe was Hitler's designated successor for most of the war.

 

If USSR makes Peace

Lets say the German attack into the Caucuses in 1942 succeeds and in January of 1943 the Soviet Government signs an Armistice leaving the Germans with Belorussia, Ukraine, the Caucuses, and Leningrad.

If it seemed like the Russians were going down the only way for the Allies to take on Germany would be to give the Pacific theater the fewest amount of men and supplies possible. For the United States this might have meant abadoning Australia and focusing only on the defense of Hawaii and Midway. America would have to send all its forces to Europe. The Goal would be to invade Northern France before the Germans could send all of their troops to the western front and fortify the channel and atlantic coasts.

The next step would be a more aggressive campaign against the U-Boats. The Allies would need to use more long range bombers like the B-24 for anti-sub work and less for the Strategic bombing camaign. In the real war the U-Boats were not really beaten until May of 1943. More resources against them might have resulted in an earlier downfall of the U-Boats.
Another factor to consider is with the USSR out of the war all the supplies and ships sent to Russia would have gone to England making it easier to supply American and British forces.

The real problem would be getting air superiority. With an advantage in the Air the allies would might be able to hold off a big German counter attack(emphasis on might). Without it an invasion in 1943 would have had no chance. The Allies could have attacked every German Airbase within fighter cover and hope to draw the Luftwaffe up and kill like in the Battle of Britain. Early use of drop tanks could have made this strategy more successfull.

If the Allies could have gotten a toehold somewhere in France before most of the to units in the Germany army came to France I think that west could have eventually beaten Germany due to superior industrial capacity and most importantly manpower. But as we all know the casualties would have been much higher and the campaign longer.

If the Allies could not invade by June, 1943 they may never have been able to successfully invade Europe. They would could have cleared North Africa controlling the Mediteranean. The bombing of German cities would have happened but I fear the war migh only have ended with the Dropping of Nukes over Central Europe

This is my first post on this site so please be gentle. :lol:
sk85

 

I need to go read the whole thread, but the Brits and Yanks flew their own jets by the time the me-262 flew..


The ME 262 was not the first German jet, but the Brits invented the jet engine.

By 1944 the US had torpedoes that could home in on U boats effectively.

 

from your link:

Colossus Mk2, a wartime code-breaker hailed as one of the first electronic


ONE of the worlds...

ONE OF THE WOLDS _



FOLLOW THE LINKS


http://www.cs.iastate.edu/jva/jva-archive.shtml


http://www.research.att.com/history/39comp.html


http://www.softlord.com/comp/


Mechanical ?


Blaise Pascal is usually credited for building the first digital computer in 1642. It added numbers entered with dials


Electronic?Eniac


They used one for the bomb , no not Einiac

Now that was a 'war ender'


Anyhow, if you checked the above links...

Then check this one

http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Reckoners.html

A little different story..



But yes Blechley Park was shall we say ..Useful

Von Neumann was a member of the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos, New Mexico in 1943 where he helped develop the atomic bomb. His previous work was used to work with detonation waves for the investigation of implosions. He also used the Harvard Computational Lab's Mark 1 to solve difficult equations.

another time line

http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/


anyway- the allies were using them

 

Re: If USSR makes Peace

And a good one!

My only problem is that the western Allies were in no position to invade France by 1943. However, if Germany had 'conquered' the CCCCP I can see Hitler once again stopping all development of weaponrry - especially ground-based stuff (tanks etc). Plus, controlling the Med gives the allies a lot of options for where to invade, and Hitler a lot of caost to have to defend...

 

Yes It would appear that Colossus wasn't the first digital electronic computer.

 

Back to the topic...

I believe the western allies could have won it alone.

Loook at the collective populations, and industrial base of England, the USA , Canada, Australia, oh and China...Vietnam even...

then add in the free French, Polish, Dutch and others into the mix.

 

I don't doubt the amount of equipment or the manpower issue is in question, however, getting a foothold on mainland Europe is. Without the eastern front There would have been millions more troops in western Europe. Also the amount of equipment that had been lost in the east would be against the west. Having said that a lot depends on the Nazis and Stalin not fighting, which I don't think would have happened.

 

HMM


Russia surrendered in WWI

The Treaty of Rappallo

Von Ribbentrop Molotov pact

The Russian invasion of Poland in 1939


4 items..

one more let me go find it

 

From cult film we perfectly know « Seventeen instants of spring » about separate negotiations of nazi Volf and American Dallesa. It is known that in critical days of war Stalin tried to conclude an armistice with Hitler much less.


The Brest world - 2

About the first attempt of negotiations it became known from interrogations Berija in 1953. Lavrentiju Palychu high treason and espionage for the benefit of Germany were just made, here it and has broken up.

In the beginning of July, 1941 when Germans have already taken Minsk, to the Kremlin the Bulgarian ambassador in the USSR Ivan Stamenov has been caused. Confused Stalin demanded urgently to come into contact to Berlin.


Stamenov appeared the ideal candidate. On the one hand, Sofia was the ally of Germany in war, and with another - the diplomat, on hearings, by this time have already successfully enlisted our special services.

this is from a widely know russian news magazine



In a cabinet, except for the ambassador, there were three more: Stalin, Berija and Molotov. As recollected then on interrogations Lavrenty Palych, the leader was silent more and more, and spoke basically narkom foreign has put. Molotov insisted on an immediate armistice with Hitler. In exchange we were ready to give Germany Baltic, the Western Ukraine, a part of Belarus and Moldova.


Сталин собирался отдать Гитлеру Прибалтику и Западную Украину

Предложения о мире фюреру он хотел сделать через болгарского посла Стаменова в июле 1941 года



А эту «встречу» Молотова и Риббентропа в Кировограде в 1943 году Сталин специально инсценировал для союзников.





Из культового фильма «Семнадцать мгновений весны» мы прекрасно знаем о сепаратных переговорах нациста Вольфа и американца Даллеса. Куда меньше известно о том, что в критические дни войны Сталин пытался заключить перемирие с Гитлером.

Брестский мир-2

О первой попытке переговоров стало известно из допросов Берия в 1953 году. Лаврентию Палычу как раз вменялись государственная измена и шпионаж в пользу Германии, вот он и раскололся.

В начале июля 1941 года, когда немцы уже взяли Минск, в Кремль был вызван болгарский посол в СССР Иван Стаменов. Растерянный Сталин требовал срочно наладить контакт с Берлином.

Стаменов оказался идеальным кандидатом. С одной стороны, София являлась союзником Германии в войне, а с другой - дипломата, по слухам, к этому времени уже успешно завербовали наши спецслужбы.

В кабинете, кроме посла, были еще трое: Сталин, Берия и Молотов. Как вспоминал потом на допросах Лаврентий Палыч, вождь все больше молчал, а говорил в основном нарком иностранных дел. Молотов настаивал на немедленном перемирии с Гитлером. Взамен мы были готовы отдать Германии Прибалтику, Западную Украину, часть Белоруссии и Молдавии.

 

There are two versions of that has taken place then. As director of the Center of the international researches of the USA and Canada the doctor of historical sciences Anatoly UTKIN has declared in interview "KP", Stamenov has told were present, that the intermediary will not be, as, « if you recede though up to Ural all the same win ». On it negotiations with Germany also have ended. Under other version, bolgarin nevertheless has informed offers of the Kremlin up to Hitler,




JUST LIKE IN WWI


But that has rejected them. Fuhrer has counted, that the Brest world - 2 on such conditions is unprofitable to it.

The generalissimo was ready to be at war with America?

Stalin has requested second time of an armistice already after our counterattack near Moscow. Under the version of the known writer-historian and former front-line soldier Vladimir Karpova, the generalissimo simply bluffed: to it the respite to rearrange was necessary for a part.

 

The meeting has ostensibly taken place in occupied by Germans Mtsenske at the end of February, 1942. Stalin sent there the first zama narkoma Merkulov's internal affairs, Germany was represented oberstgruppenfjurer SS by Volf whom in the spring 1945 will try to agree upon the separate world already with Americans. The USSR has suggested Germans to stop military actions on all front from 6 o'clock in the morning on May, 5, 1942.





And further according to the plan we shall be at war already together, only against England and the USA. Carps in the book even results a copy of this agreement.

- It seems to me, that these documents - a usual forgery. I do not know, who has cooked up them, but of mistakes in them is full, - the employee of Institute of general history of the Russian Academy of Science the candidate of historical sciences Michael MYAGKOV asserts in conversation with "KP".




Ribbentrop again forced Molotova to the pact

In 1970 in England the book of British historian Liddela of the Metal « History of the second world war » has left. It asserts, that in June, 1943 Molotov and Ribbentrop have met in Kirovograd. Boundaries across Dnepr while Molotov suggested to return to pre-war borders would arrange the chapter of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Under the version of the Metal, the meeting has been interrupted after about it it became known behind ocean - in Washington


---
The hearing about negotiations Molotova and Ribbentropa in 1943 quite could be well planned action of one of belligerent parties. It was necessary for Moscow that the USA and England have faster opened the second front. And Germans thus could try to hammer a wedge between allies on an antihitlerite coalition before fight near Kursk, - Michael Myagkov considers.


After a victory over the Kursk arch Stalin is more to a theme of separate negotiations with Berlin did not come back. The destiny of war was solved on a battle-field, instead of behind a negotiating table.

During negotiations in Mtsenske 20 - on February, 27, 1942 with the representative of the German command and the chief of a personal staff rejhsfjurera SS gruppenfjurerom SS Volf the German command has not found possible to satisfy our requirements.

It was offered to our party to leave borders up to the end of 1942 on a front line as is, having stopped operations ?


The German command does not exclude, that we can create a united front against England and the USA.

After consultations of Berlin Volf has declared, that at a reorganization of the world if a management of the USSR of signs of the requirement of the German party, probably, Germany will press the borders in the east for the benefit of the USSR.

At discussion of positions there were following divergences:

1) Latin America should belong to Germany.

2) The complex attitude to understanding of the Chinese civilization. In opinion of the German command, China should become an occupied territory and protectorate of the Japanese empire.

3) The Arabian world should be the German protectorate in the north of Africa.

Thus, as a result of negotiations it is necessary to note a full divergence of sights and positions.

The representative of the German command Volf categorically denies an opportunity of route of the German armed forces and defeats in war.



In its opinion, war with Russia will be tightened for some years and will terminate in a full victory of Germany. The basic calculation is done that, in their opinion, Russia, having lost forces and resources in war, will be compelled to return to negotiations about an armistice, but on more severe constraints, later 2 - 3 years.

The first assistant to the national commissioner



Internal affairs of the USSR (MERKULOV).

Maxim of SISKINS max@kp.ru
On February, 24, 2005.




I CAN CUT AND PASTE THE WHOLE ARTICLE IN RUSSIAN AND YOU ALL CAN RUN A TRASLATE ON IT IF YOU WANT

www.kp.ru

The USA & GB invaded Sicilly and drew off the best SS panzer divisions from Kursk to Italy

 

This probably is worth a thread of its own--- mods


go right ahead and split it if you want...

 

now about needing european bases..

A one way B-29 mission would solve that need..

There were more bombs beyond fat man and lttle boy..

The Japanese were more fanatical than the Germans and they capitualted fairly quickly..

 

Africa based Bombing missions and carrier operations could have been run..

 

http://translation2.paralink.com/


russian english translator

:kill:

24 Feb 05

www.kp.ru

:smok:

 

http://www.kp.ru/daily/23467/37157/


use the translator

 

Except in 1942/3/4, the bomb was not even a factor. Would the western allies be happy to sit around alowing Germany to consolidate her hold on Europe in the hope that an expensive science experiment (which most people believed would not work) would produce something useful.
Churchill (and remember he was an influential figure) believed that it would work, but that it would be no more powerful than regular explosives.

So, some kind of invasion is needed.

How?