Did the German Popluation want Lebensraum

Thanks belasar and Skipper for useful contributions to this thread.

Since 1930 to 2010 density of German population has grown by 64%. (from 140 to 229 inhabitants per sq. kilometer). Meanwhile, her economical potential has grown at much higher rate. This indicates that the idea of Lebensraum was fundamentally wrong. Apparently, success of Barbarossa would have just led into creation of vast devastated territories of Poland, east Russia, Belarus and Ukraine.

I don't see any reasonable benefits for German population arising from success of Barbarossa. This also indicates that Nazis have waged a war with ill-defined objectives.

 

I fully agree with that, Tamino!

 

Remarkable what not killing off your best and brightest every twenty years or so can do for you.

 

Another aspect to be considered. I am talking about the Westmark and Lothringen territories here.

When Alsace and Lorraine were conquered a considerable part of the pro-French speaking population fled to non occupied France. Many villages hosted several Alsacian famillie sduring the war until they could return home in 1944-1945.

For those who stayed several options remained. In 1941 their region were annexed to the Reich once again and they had :

-to change nationality
-to speak German at work , at school and even at home or to learn it fast
-to change their first and last name
-to Germanise their shops etc..
-to have one or several member sof a family membe rof the party (not compulsory, but highly recommended if you wanted a job, a scolarship, or avoid trouble)

Those who did not comply were expelled, deported or arrested. Those who complied but were considered as "undesirable" were still expelled.
This resulted in the splitting of families, some had a brother opting for the Fench nationality and another brother becoming German etc...

In 1942 Conscription was instaured and all those who were aged 18 to 40 were asked (in fact forced) to join the German army) . To make sure they would not desert, most of those "Malgré nous" (= "against our will") as they called themselves were sent to the Ost front far from home and in seperated units . They fought like brave men because comradship with Front kamareden was the only way to survive. Those who were captured by Stalin were treated like die hard Nazis and De Gaulle had the hardest time to release some of them after 1945. Many died in Siberia until some finally returned home in the 50s . There they were welcomed, but they were not understood by the other French who considered them as having fought for the enemy.

nb: this also included Luxemburgers.


This is why local monuments do not say "fell for France or for Gemrany", but "fell during the war".

Soultz (Alsace, France) : les Malgré-Nous (in French )

 

Skipper that is one very interesting facet of what happened to people at the occuped nations. There are thousand of unknown fates in that way and most of them ended up in a tragedy! So say a prayer for them and lets hope that the mankind has learned out of this catastrophy and it will never happen again!

 

There ar emany monuments in both languages and where soldier from all nations are welcome for commemorations. I remember a ceremony near Colmar in 2008 at a place called the "monument of peace", but I forgot the exact place. It was written in German and was addressed to both nations in an equal way, not one over another.

Another fact about the Malgré nous. despite being over 130.000 to have served in the Wehrmacht (and over 30% did not return which is one of the highest rate among ethnic groups) they are politically forgotten at the Wast in the Berlin archives and have no mentionned nationality on their files (even when their wish is known) .

 

Thank you all for the excellent response to the thread I started - lots of really interesting facts and ideas that I had never come across before.

 

You're welcome Scipio. Another aspect that should be taken into account the General Governement in Poland when names were Germanized and settlers encouraged to go there too. Same for the Baltic states. People tned to think of Russia , White Russia and Ukriane only, but many other territories were integrated. Another place that comes to mind is Laibach (Lubliana ) in Slovenia.

 

From my personnal library: this is a chapter about Landdienst volunteers from Northern Europe . The story includes, Flemmish, Dutch , Danish and Norwagian Mâdels moving to the Ostland . The book mentions the figures of 40.000 voulnteers (this is propaganda, so figures should be taken with caution). The picture shows Norwegian Mädels at their new school in the Warthegau (annexed territory from Poland)



From : Mädel Eure Welt : Zentralverlag des NSDAP 1944

 

Two questions were asked earlier in the thread, Did Germany need living space and did the German people want it? The answer is a qualified yes to both questions. Now before I get sent to the cooler please allow me to explain.

It would be instructive to turn the question around somewhat and ask "Did the English people need/want an empire?" "Did the French?", "Did America need Manifest Destiny?" Certainly the world is what it is because these and other events. In each case the People, English-French-American, told themselves that they had the right and even duty to do this. In each case the people who inhabited-controlled the land in question were considered inferior, and unworthy of ownership of such prime land and resources.

The Empire builders told themselves that they were acting in the best interest of their people, civilization in general and the needs of such obviosly inferior and un-civilized native people. To not act would be a injustice and perhaps a criminal act of waste of potential that must be exploited for the good of the world. Sound familar?

Germany's bad luck was that they came to the Empire game late. By the time of the German unification in 1860-1870's all the choice bits were already taken. Under the Kaiser they could only aquire a few small morsels here and there and the other empires were jelously guarding their spoils, unwilling to share without out a fight. It did not help the German perspective that their unification was prevented-delayed by other empires (Russia, Austria, France and England) scrambling for possesion and power with their very land being the prize sought.

Not unlike an abused child they learned how to act from their elders. The problem of course was that as far as the existing empires were concerned was the club was full and no new members need aply. Germany's motives in WWI were no worse than any other participant, but suffered the most because the victors had to find someone else to blame for the folly of the needless carnage inflicted which of course they were equally guilty.

With their tiny overseas empire taken over by the victors, for the good of the native peoples and civilization of course, Germany could only seek greatness and the empire it felt it deserved in europe proper. Were there voices that said no, undoubtedly, as there were such in England, France and America but the powerfull people of each country overruled such dissent and the average person in the steet yearned for a greatness they could take pride in. For the British it was an empire in which the sun never set on the Union Jack, for America it was from Manifest Destiny, I have no idea what the French called it but I am sure it was inspiring and poetic.

Germany called it Lebensraum.

 

Good analyses and yes there was such a poetic name :La France d'Outremer (= overseas).

 

Very good of you to try to resolve and express the understanding of these things that have been asked about. I don't see any reason for you to be in the cooler or they will have to put me there too. I will make a few observations just for you and other readers to think about. I do not believe the age of "Colonialism" is completely over. There are still many people in many countries wanting something from some other corner of the planet. In a way that is human nature. The big question is once we accept this as a form of human nature.........now can we see the element within ourselves? For example....are we wanting access to oil from somewhere else? To what extent is that justified? I will also add this to think about as well. France had large portions carved out in the American Continents and have relatively less to show for than other countries. Spain did something very similar as France as well. It is sometimes said by Historians that these two cultures did something slightly different in their conquest of empires. Sometimes, they left their women at home and conquered by mixing in. That has left a somewhat different legacy than other European countries. What do you think? As an example the Phillipines are not Spanish, they are Phillipino.

 

Thanks Skipper!, perhaps its time for another Texan president? No. Pity!

 

Yes and force every single household in the world to have T-bones every day and own a BBQ shaped trailer.

But's let's go back to the topic now and focuss to the German settling in the east.

 

... Sam Belasar Houston it is! Now you can start planning the takeover of Texarkana, the Louisiana Bayou and Chihuahua! Ole!

 

I thought Texan Lebensraum would aim Mexico ?

 

I would argue that it is indeed. There's a big difference from wanting things from other places and colonizing them. Although what ended colonialism was the expense of running the colonies especially when some concern for the inhabetents of said colonies became if not required at least a cause for concern. This was pretty clear by the latter part of the 19th century (Bismarck for instance saw it quite clearly). That doesn't mean of course that less than noble means are still not used to acquire what is desired but it's a long way from the era when a European country could just take over any piece of land that wasn't controlled by another European country.

 

@belasar:
I am glad to hear that we do not dispute the answer to the essential question: did German population want Lebensraum. At least for two decades Lebensraum was the central point of both German political thought and the idea of the entire nation. However, from the perspective of the present German citizen, Lebensraum is neither needed nor necessity. I cannot imagine a German who would like to relocate somewhere to Kazakhstan neither that German nation needs Lebensraum at so low population growth. Even in the 1st half of twentieth century the concept of Lebensraum was retrograde.

 

Taken from "Deutschentum Im Osten" in the 1943-1944 Mâdel Jahrbuch (translated from German) "What did we Mädel actually know about Germans in the east? We have perhaps read "Wolgakinder" by Erika Müller-Hennig, which depicts the misery of the Volksdeutschen during WWI and the Soviet aera.
From time to time there would be a mention about starvation in ukraine and the Wolga in a newspaper, but the borders remained hermetically closed. After the battle versus Bolschvism which started in 1941, we started having more and more letters from our fathers, brothers and comrades who were amazed when in the middle of Ukraine they stubled upon a German village, a piece of the homeland, in foreign territory.
Some of us have actually made it over there and have helped the German farmers in Ukraine to overcome the hell of over 25 years of Soviet rule and have started a new German way of life. "

In other words the Lebensraum from this Propaganda point of view tends to show the settling of the Osten territories is a reconquest that had started during the midlde ages and has been "legitimate" ever since.

interesting point of view isn't it?

 

Has Imperialism ended, or simply evolved. Germany in the early 1940's (as well as Japan) prcticed old style imperialism that would have been tolerated and even respected just a hundred years before. Japan of the 1970's and '80's practiced a economic and industrial imperialism. China is doing the same now and the US has been practicing a cultural and media imperialism for decades. It is all about influence, power, money and pride. The goals are the same, only the methods have changed.