Germans got Panzerfaust idea from Allies!

I don't trust your sources of dates and this may have not made it to the internet correctly. I'm still sticking with my original post guys, the picture of the early m9 is also stated june 1942 and the early faustpatrone prototypes,
(yes that's the weapon that came out before the panzerfaust 30) is stated in the same summer of that year. Operation Torch started on 8 November 1942 WELL after the early m9 AT was out and being used in a conflict somewhere or the plans stolen by someone and received in Germany and built as the prototype "gretchen" Could they have captured it in France or Soviet Union through Roosevelt and his lend lease of $50 billion of supplies to those countries? MAYBE.

The dates for example check how off wikipedia is with the dates with the bazooka as an example and how no one really knows any info on it .
"The Panzerschreck was developed as a copy from captured bazookas of American origin. They were either captured in 1942 on the Eastern front from Soviet forces that had received a shipment of bazookas or they were captured in Tunisia from American forces in February 1943, or both."

PS
Pupchen came way after and is way off topic.

 

Dear god but this is becoming ridiculous. The Germans manufactured the first ten Puppchen in July 1943. If you like I can give you the file listing for Speers summary "quick report" prepared inApril 1945, which has the data and you can go to Freiburg yourself to check it out.

 

You are free to do as you wish, but you are completely incorrect.

 

http://www.bergflak.com/pshistory.html

I like the comparison between the Panzerschreck and the Pak 36.
The reduction in costs is staggering. But counter-measures were equally cheap (sand bags, skirts).

 

The 2.36 inch Rocket Launcher M1 began development in late 1941 as a sketch concept by Gregory Kessinich, the chief of the Ordnance Department Patent Section, intended to solve the problems of the M10 Antitank Grenade. In early 1942 2d Lieutenant Edward Uhl completed the first prototype tube launcher and Major Leslie Skinner completed the first prototype rocket projectile. Trials began in May 1942, fired by then Captain Uhl. It was standardized on 30 June 1942...after GE had completed a 30-day contract to produce 5,000 pilots and the E.G. Budd Company 25,000 rockets, with 79 hours to spare. It was deployed with units of Operation TORCH and the first were apparently captured by the Germans in Tunisia in December 1942, a somewhat garbled description was given in a 10. Panzerdivision Ic (G-2) report of January 1943. The few captured intact in Tunisia eventually got to Kummersdorf and were demonstrated in March 1943, resulting in a decision to produce a copy.

However, by that time the Raketenwerfer 43 development, most specifically the projectile, was already complete. The Heereswaffenamt took the sensible decision to modify the 8,8cm Raketen Panzer Granat 4312, which was percussion fired, to electrical ignition, making a tube-fired design practical. The new round was the 8,8-cm-Raketen-Panzerbüchse Granat 4322. Coincidentally, serial production of both the Raketenwerfer 43 and the Raketen-Panzerbüchse began in July 1943. It is unknown when the first Raketenwerfer saw combat, but likely in September-October 1943 in Italy, while the first Raketen-Panzerbüchse apparently went to the Eastern Front in the same time frame and were also seen in Italy shortly thereafter.

Meanwhile, only 3,000 M1 and M9 launchers and 8,500 rockets were ever shipped to the Soviet Union. It is unlikely they arrived there before November 1942, and it likely was much later.

 

Did the Red Army develop something similar to the Panzerschreck/Bazooka?
Usually, the soviets always tried to build their weapons as simple and cheap as possible, but it seems they weren't convinced of the Bazooka concept. Molotov-cocktails and anti-tank-mines were even cheaper.

What about Japan? To simply copy the cheap Panzerfaust must have been incredibly tempting.

 

The Japanese "bazooka" was the Type 4 70mm anti-tank Rocket launcher. It was developed in 1944-45, but by the end of the war, only about 3,500 had been produced. AFAIK, it never saw combat use, having been reserved for use in defense of the Home Islands.

 

AFAIK, the Soviets saw their Lend-Lease bazookas as underpowered, and are reported to have favored captured panzerschreks & panzerfausts. The RPG-1 did not come about until 1945, and did not perform very well. A Soviet equivalent to the bazooka/panzerschrek/panzerfaust would have to wait for the introduction of the much improved RPG-2.

 

A few little nuggets on early Soviet 'man-portable' rocket tubes on this thread:
http://www.ww2f.com/topic/56596-rpg-7/?p=628387#entry628387
The 'probably' 30s RB65 is intriguing, but it's a really sketchy area whenever I've tried to look into it. That lovely period a few years ago when all the Soviet archive sites seemed to be flowering has apparently rather stuttered of late.

WW24, there just isn't enough evidence for your theory to hold water, mate. More in fact that makes it unlikely.
Contiguous development of military (or any other) technology doesn't automatically imply 'copying'. Perhaps particularly in time of war when so many different scientific establishments are facing very similar, and pressing, new challenges. That evidence trail becomes crucial when trying to disentangle such stuff.

An AT rifle grenade is an AT rifle grenade.
A Panzerfaust is a Panzerfaust.
The fact both are attempting similar outcomes and thus might both require similar striking technology and use what is the current best contemporary shape for that end can't be a base for claims of direct inspiration.

Always found it hard to grasp exactly the damage a Panzerfaust did to armour. Then met the chap in charge of his 'colander' Grant, who explained how he'd spent a long time attaching Faust warheads to it while working on tests.
Neat 20p size holes with matching squirt and splatter on the inside - must have been like a molten steel blender after a decent hit.

View attachment 25193

 

Japanese manually operated Panzerfausts.

View attachment 25194 View attachment 25195

Though... I now have a small worrying suspicion that there might have been something a little more faust-ish tested. Away from books at the mo though.

 

Ah, here we go.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bsbvCwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT116&ots=QZOG2pz7ik&dq=japanese%2070mm%20panzerfaust&pg=PT115#v=onepage&q=japanese%2070mm%20panzerfaust&f=true

Type 4:
View attachment 25198

Type 5:
View attachment 25197

 

The conical-antitank-hollow-charge-hand-grenade reminds me of the german Panzerwurfmine:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/148254-3/Result26

Surprisingly well-liked by the infantry. It hits the tank from above - where the armour is thin.

 

Has anyone ever seen ANY account of a US M9 or any countries version of a anti tank rifle grenade actually destroying a tank? I just read RichTO90's book Hitler's Last Gamble (fantastic by the way) and there are many accounts of tanks being destroyed by bazooka and Faust/Shrek but I have never seen an account (even in all the "green books" of NW Europe) about any tank being destroyed by a rifle grenade and I've probably read 10 or 15 separate tank and tank destroyer battalion AARs for their entire European campaigns. The only info that's easily accessable on the internet says they "gave good service throughout the war". Is it possible some of the tanks credited to bazookas of all types were actually knocked out by rifle grenades?

 

Thank you. No, I have never seen an account of an AT rifle grenade being successfully used. Its complicated though by the fact that the Americans initially reported the Panzerfaust losses as being from a rifle grenade. It could well have happened though.

 

Good question.

A possible start:

From: Ben & Bawb's Blog (Good page on Rifle Grenades in general.)

Have not yet found the referenced: '"OOB21, 30 Jun 44, Lessons Learned in the Italian Campaign"' Guessing it'll be in the USACAC listings somewhere.

 

Lone Sentry site-search for "Rifle Grenade".
https://cse.google.co.uk/cse?hl=en&client=google-coop&cof=AH:left%3BCX:Site%2520Search%2520Extension%3BL:http://www.google.com/coop/intl/en/images/custom_search_sm.gif%3BLH:65%3BLP:1%3BVLC:%23551a8b%3BGFNT:%23666666%3BDIV:%23cccccc%3B&adkw=AELymgW7NXaEzEr8q80yndqKh_1RzzNHSzOaMHmd84Uou_lBMKEMf0iaOK28xHp9XyYXO683qFEd_DeklsyvBG-CSvHrw09xWcHw6UU0lfRorYaQ87tGxWI&btnG=Search&cx=0117285376876550095307u-bn_5me4&q=+site:lonesentry.com&gws_rd=cr&ei=gNlsWI2vLYGDgAaop4WYAg#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=site%3Alonesentry.com%20%22rifle%20grenades%22

Not fully combed through it yet, but there might be something.
Certainly as interesting as LS always is on the actual function of what was available.

 

Well there you go, at least one account so far of a tank destroyed. I read somewhere that they made 27 million of the M9s so they must have been good for something.

 

As a good citizen should- VOTED