I'm new and have a question

Christian wrote:

Yes but we are discussing different things. I don't dispute the numbers of Pz I an IIs listed in the order of battle. I'm talking not about how many there were but how they were used. If you can find an armor encounter after May 10 where Pz I or Pz IIs were used as frontline tanks I would be interested in reading about it. No one in their right mind would attack an S-35(47mm main gun), a B1bis(47mm and 75mm guns) or even an R-35 (37mm) with a Pz I(MGs only) or Pz II 20 mm). It would be futile and probably suicide. When I have time to search through my books I will try and find the specific quotes where authors have indicated that in the battle of France (certainly after 10 May) that Pz Is and II's were used as command tanks and for training and recon purposes.

 

With regards to the Pz.Kpfw.I, it is true that it wouldn't be used against tanks intentionally, but it never was intended to be used against tanks anyway.

The Pz.Kpfw.II was better suited to fight armoured vehicles. The 2 cm Kw.K. 38 could penetrate 20 mm. of armour at 100 m. using standard ammunition, and 40 mm. of armour at 100 m. using Tungsten ammunition.

Still, the German armour tactics was not to engage tanks with tanks, but to by-pass the enemy, and leave it to the anti-tank guns to fight the enemy tanks. Therefore, you won't find that many combat reports of any German tank engaging Allied armour during Fall Gelb, combared to the number of anti-tank guns engaging Allied armour.

If you read the Fall Gelb chapter of Jentz's Panzer Truppen 1, the Pz.Kpfw.II is brought up a few times as being involved in combat situations.

Furthermore, regarding the statement that the Pz.Kpfw.I and Pz.Kpfw.II was used for command vehicles, reconnaissance and training:
In regards to the use as command vehicles, the German order-of-battles (Kriegsgliederung) seperated regular tanks from command vehicles in the equipment list. The kl.Pz.Bef.Wg., based on the Pz.Kpfw.I, was the main command vehicle, with a few Pz.Kpfw.35(t) and Pz.Kpfw.38(t) converted to command vehicles for the divisions fielding these. The Pz.Kpfw.IIs are specified as such in the Kriegsgliederung, not as Pz.Bef.Wg. (and were therefore not generally used as command vehicles).

For use as reconnaissance vehicles, Pz.Kpfw.IIs might have been used as such on occasions where the armoured cars were not available, but each armoured division has a reconnaissance batallion with armoured cars. The Pz.Kpfw.IIs in the divisions were not intended for reconnaissance, that is clear from the Kst.N.

The Pz.Kpfw.II was definately used for training, though - there is no denying that - but not within the the armoured divisions, and definately not during combat.

 

if someone has real bad eye sight this might seen like a mini Tiger because of the front, actually Tiger below.

 

Would not the Sherman be comparible to the PIII?

 

No, the Sherman has overall thicker armour, heavier armament and greater weight than the Panzer III even in its earliest version.

 

That dosen't m,ean you can't compare the Panzer III to the Sherman. they werrte both MBT.

 

Comparing two items and them being comparable does not mean the same thing.

 

Good point... :cry:

 

Slightly OT, this is akin to the myth that every incoming round was coming from an 88! It's amazing to read contemporary reports, or even memoirs written after the war that talk about arty barrages fired by "88s!"

Once the myth is formed, it's hard to kill it.

 

Absolutely.

In Band of Brothers for example the Brecourt Manor battery taken out by Easy Company on D-Day consists of 88mm AA guns. In reality this battery was a standard light field artillery battery of four 105mm guns.

 

Believe it or not, the show got it right. When given the orders Dick Winters (Easy Coy acting CO) is told the battery consists of 88's. After the battle he reports that the pieces were actually 105's.

 

Yes but the guns used in the show were 88s weren't they?

According to the book, they were 105s all along.

 

They were 10,5 cm le.F.H.18, thank you very much!

 

In that case, excuse me. It's been too long since I saw that episode.

 

7 weeks ago for me because thursday History channel showing episode 9 there it was 7 weeks ago that they showed episode 2. (Finally the History Chanel puts something else besides bloody documentaries. The Canadaian History chanel).

 

well, first of all, the tiger was a good tank. It was powerful and could take out some tanks in 1 shot. But, however, the tiger had its disadvantages:
-it was slow
-it was not very reliable
-not mass-produced
-heavy, huge, and could use up A LOT of fuel
-some parts of the tiger were weak
so this is generally what tigers have disadvantages on. But, overall, tigers could pack a punch, and were hard to destroy, a single tiger operating in normandy could take out many tanks, so some tanks didnt even bother to take a shot at the tigers.
Overall, i would say, that the tger was a fairly good tank, but not the best.

 

Welcome to the forum, bellmaker.

I agree that the Tiger was a powerful tank, but its design was obsolete because of a lack of sloped armour; also, its armour may have been thick and its gun powerful, but by the end of the war both its armour thickness and its firepower had been surpassed on all sides by tanks that weighed little more than half as much as the Tiger itself. Therefore, it wasn't exaclty a miracle worker.

The story of Wittmann in Normandy is quite unique, actually, and should not be seen as representative of the capabilities of the Tiger in more common combat situations.

 

It was more to do with the commander (experience), and conditions of the battle including the strenght of both forces.

 

the tiger was slow, it's turret traversed very slowly( witman was a stug
ace and knew how to swing the whole body to aim faster ) ,it's wheel
were fragile complicated and stuck if full of frozen mud (the russian
caught quite a few when attacking early in winter morning , there were
too few of them ,
they were used mostly as ambush style . they were deadly bastards .
on the subject of identification ,
a panzer 4 with turret protection and half a forest of camouflage on top
could be confused with anything ,