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Invading the USSR

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe October 1939 to February 1943' started by dasreich, Oct 28, 2002.

  1. Heartland

    Heartland Member

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    Hardly. Already during Bagration in '44 the Red Air Force could do pretty much as it pleased. Many Soviet pilots attest that their main troubles stemmed from flak, during the last year of the war or so. The Luftwaffe certainly could "surge" certain areas and produce local results, but they were very far from "in control".
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Yes, Erich,

    Could you please give the criteria on which your statement is based or is there a wrong year or something? I mean, I think that in 1945 I have on my mind a figure of some 500 planes for Luftwaffe and some 6-7000 planes for Soviets.That´s how I remember it. So I would not think Germans had anything to do with control of the skies thus.
    :confused:
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    "After reorganization in 1944 by Dorsch of the Ministry of Armament and War Economy, the production shot to new highs. In 1944 the production of fighter aircraft, almost 11 thousand not including the 1000 jet aircraft, was significantly more than all of the previous 5 years of wartime production. From 1943 to 1944, the production of all types almost doubled. (Bekker Appendix 13) Even with the massive numbers of aircraft built, Germany had lost the production race against the almost unlimited resources and manpower of the Allies especially the United States. In 1944 America had produced almost 100 thousand aircraft (Angelucci p. 361). Thus Knoke was correct in assessing the loss ratio of the Luftwaffe. ``The loss of five aircraft... means as much as a loss of fifty of the enemy'' (Knoke p. 167).

    Luftwaffe was constantly short of aircraft during the struggle in both the east and west..."

    Even with such high figures was it that they did not have the 1.pilots 2. the oil 3. not enough planes to fight the allied armadas?

    --------

    "By the end of the war, the 220,000 tons of bombs rained down on the German oil industry had reduced its output to 5 percent of the previous year's production, resulting in bizarre anomalies like the latest thing in aviation, jet fighters, being towed to their takeoff positions by teams of horses to save on the fuel required for taxiing"

    http://www.caselab.okstate.edu/ocharle/projects/lf.html
     
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    A pic I like alot on how it presents the nature of Stalin´s and Hitler´s relationship:

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
  5. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Kai, actually, in the Eastern front, in spring 1945 some 9.000 Soviet aircraft were deployed. If Germany had more than 1.000 there, let me know. Maybe that's air superiority... :rolleyes:
     
  6. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Damned... I sound like Andy...

    Erich, sorry if my post sounds a little harsh and uppish! I was asking you only to show us your opinions. [​IMG] Your 'facts'. Hehehe... [​IMG]
     
  7. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Germany swept from the skies ! hardly. Whenever there were German fighters the Soviets would stay away in 1945, unless they had a 4 to 1 advantage. Most German casualties in 1945 were due to Soviet AA defences. The Me 262 JG 7 blew almost every Soviet a/c it came into contact with right out of the sky. It lost possibly 4 a/c to Soviet fighters. Where were the Soviet supremeacy as the Jets and German Ju 88G-6 night fighters came into shooting up every Soviet aircraft they could find on permanent and make-shift forward bases..... ? The reason why books claim that the Luftwaffe wasn't in control is because no one has really taken the time to evaluate losses and claims plus missions of the Luftwaffe in 1945. Sure, there are some histories available but not of all the units. Much information has been lost for all time. So do the authors and what has been written on the net really state the truth. The German night fighter force as an example was always in control, there were no Soviet night fighters to give any resistance and NJG 100 for an example did pretty much as they pleased until they were forced back due to Soviet army advancements. There was plenty of a/c and pilots to go around and even the fuels to accomplish suicidal ground attack missions both night and day. I cannot agree there was air supreamcy by the Soviets, maybe it should be stated there was an sense of overwhelming odds in their favour.......of course this has alreay been stated earlier. My interviews with around 25 Luftwaffe vets keep saying pretty much the same thing. And of course you can cite references that state such and such Russian bombers and fighters met no Luftwaffe a/c and on the other hand Luftwaffe a/c were up on missions and could not find the Soviets....except for numerous land targets.

    E
     
  8. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    One more thing I will try to add without rambling and making little sense. In 1945 the Luftwaffe in the East was being squeezed by both sides, west and east due to the land war. The lack of fuels prevented most of the Luftwaffe a/c to fly to the west, as from both the Allies/Soviets quick advancements, hundred's and I mean hundreds of Luftwaffe a/c were left on vacant airfields and dumped into lakes and ditches, some a/c in good condition others blown to bits at the hands of Luftwaffe ground maintenance personell. As can be seen from the end of January 1945 most of the Reich defence (day) was sent to the Ost front to defend the eastern borders, and these units put up the fight till the last week of April to May of 45 when they were ordered to fly to the west and surrender.

    E
     
  9. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Thank you, very much for clearing our doubts, Erich. And even if the numbers we have stated are correct I think you are also more than correct when you say that a few German fighters could stop the Russians for a while unless they used their numbers.
     
  10. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Last thging for tonight. Whether you agree or not with my statements.......it doesn't really matter, but ; The Soviets had a different mind set for use of their air force as did the Luftwaffe. As can be seen from mid- 44 onward the Luftwaffe was posed for defence and only came in for a scant attack such as Bodenplatte on 1-1-45. In mid 45 the Luftwaffe was posed with what a/c they could muster to counter any threat of possible bomber/fighter attack. As to numbers put up, of course it was quite low compared to the gigantic numbers of Soviet a/c that could be put into action. Even the Sopviets with something in the realm of over 9500 a/c is not unreasonable.

    E
     
  11. Zhadov

    Zhadov Member

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    What do you suggest that his flanks(Africa,Italy,Normandy),commanded the outcome on the east?? [​IMG]
    It was really quite opposite,because Hitler sent vast majority of his army on Russia.Just imagine those 180 german divisions fighting in the west in 1941,1942...what would remain of British(or Americans) in Africa or anywhere else..
    Few examples:Germans were doing well in Africa so long as their supplies were undisturbed(Italy-Libia route).Now on their way was Malta which was decisive in this matter.The 20th air corp of Wermacht based on Sicily complitly neutralased Malta as british naval and air base,but was then withrawn on the eastern front.This made little difference in the east but was crucial for Africa corp as British started to disable supply routes to Libia.This shows how great and important battles in Russia were,when Germans practically sacrificed Africa for a minor help in Russia.

    When Allies pushed from the west after embarking in Normandy,German high command confronted them with half as many divisions fighting in the east.

    80 percent of all german losses were inflicted in the east(some 5000 000 man),paid with more than twice as many Soviet soldiers and even more civillians.
    So it is in my opinion pointless to even compare eastern and western fronts..
     
  12. Zhadov

    Zhadov Member

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    Who was massing for an attack?Soviets?Rediculous!
    Stalin and therefore all of soviet army and(to a great stage) industry were COMPLETLY unprepared for the war..I belive there is no point to even elaborate this.. I hope? ;)
     
  13. JOL

    JOL Member

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    Sorry Zhadov, I meant defeating the Brits prior to embarking on Barbarrosa.
     
  14. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    I agree with Andy W on this one. I have found no evidence which I would consider reliable that backs up the theory that Russia was planning an attack in 42-3.
    Starlin didn`t trust Hitler and was building up his forces, but I find no evidence that he intented to attack Germany. I feel he had too much respect for the German army to consider it.

    As for winning WW2.
    To all intents and purpose, he had already won it. All he had to do was maintain the U-Boat war on the British, and even if it didn`t bring the British to their knees, it would have worn them down enough for them to seek a negotiated peace.
     
  15. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Stalin might not have wanted to attack Germany with the pre-emptive strike but Zukow would have, I think... :D
     
  16. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    Yep. As I said numerous times, a "pre-emptive" strike was considered (and actually would have been a good idea), but no "preventive" strike.

    Again a more contemporary example of the difference betteen "pre-emptive" and "preventive":

    If Saddam HAD decided to to spray NYC with nerve gas, and the U.S. nukes Bagdad to prevent this...this would be a "pre-emptive" strike. If Saddam has the nerve gas and WILL decide to spray it over NYC more sooner than later in the future, an "preventive" onslaught of the U.S.A. would be a good idea. If Saddam has nerve gas, which he THEORETICALLY COULD spray over NYC (or not), an attack on Iraq is an act of aggression.

    And, no, please, don't drag this into a "Current history"-topic...it's just an example. We can replace Saddam with neighbors living left or right of you. You're simply not allowed to shoot down your right neighbor with your .38 Special because he's a criminal and you suspect that he has a gun, too; nor can you shoot your neighbor to the left because he has this nice well you want and you suspect that he is buying a .22 in the near future.

    Cheers,

    [ 09. December 2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    In the first days of warfare in Russia German pilots claimed an unbelievable amount of shot-downs – for instance on 22 June Luftflotte 2 claimed shooting down 210 enemy aircraft in the air and destruction to further 528 on the ground. Generally on the first day the Luftwaffe’s score was 322 Russian aircraft shot down and a further 1489 destroyed on the ground – 1811 aircraft altogether! The next day the destruction to further 775 machines of Soviet Air Force mainly on the ground was claimed.

    On 30 June the Messerschmitts Bf109F of JG 51 were perfectly directed on a great formation of Russian bombers flying without a fighters cover near Minsk. During a huge air fight Mölders’ pilots claimed shooting down as many as 114 (??) enemy aircraft, and one of these shot-downs apeared to be JG51’s thousandth victory. That was only 20 shot-downs less than was the claim of this unit for the whole September 1940 in the Battle of England! Mölders himself shot down five Tupolevs SB-2 raising his score to 82 victories. In such a way he came to a level with a German ace of WW I Manfred von Richthofen, and for that Hitler awarded him with Swords to the Knight’s Cross with Oak Leaves.

    On the morning of 15 July 1941 Oberstleutnant Mölders divided tasks between his staff, and before noon he took off for a routine patrol flight. To the south of Orsha he saw five fighters Polikarpow I-16, which he attacked with his wingman. After a quick attack from the sun side the shot I-16 caught fire and went in a spin to the ground. The remaining Russian fighters dispersed in a blink. Mölders flied around a little receiving congratulations from his colleagues, who on the airffield radio heard his claim of the ‘’hundredth’’ and the wingman’s confirmation. On his way back he met a lone bomber DB-3, which he immediately attacked and shot down. In this way he gained his 100th and 101st victory as the first pilot in the world. At the Stary Bychov airfield great enthusiasm reigned: all pilots and mechanics gathered in the take-off area. When the JG 51’s leader’s Messerschmitt landed, champagne and other drink bottles shot, and Mölders was carried out of his cockpit on the people’s hands. They celebrated till the break of dawn.Adolf Hitler granted him with Diamonds to the Knight’s Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords as the first Wehrmacht soldier.
    On 19 July he left the leadership of JG 51 at the hands of the so-far-leader of IV/JG 51, Major Friedrich Beckh, and took the office of Inspektor der Jägdflieger.
    Not totally confirmed information has it that Mölders still took part in combat missions on the eastern front and within two months he shot down about 30 more Russian machines. However, that was not noted anywhere as he was forbidden by Göring himself to participate in missions.
    His radio nickname ‘Bussard’ was known on both sides of the front

    http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/molders/molders.htm

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Kai :

    The Luftwaffe had complete control of the air at this time and had the resources during the first month plus of excellent recon. The figures you give I can only assume included all totals from all fighter and bomber gruppen taking part, this including Dive bombing/strafing Stuka units in the ground attack roles....

    E
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Until ( If ) I find different calculations I would consider these the totals of the first days by Luftwaffe...

    In some book there was a mention that the Red Army pilots did some couple of thousand or more flight hours during the first 24 hours but I find that quite amusing more or less...With what planes exactly?? :eek: :confused:
     

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