Discussion in 'The Stump' started by 36thID, Nov 24, 2012.
VB, why is this "occurrence" such a passionate thing with you? Just wondering you know.
I think the answer to that question may lie in perusing Volga's post 31and Kodiak's post 156.
This, however, is just my opinion.
I think the United States of America is the greatest country on earth. Everything I have ever read about this country made me admire the accomplishments of it's people even more. The very fact that the U.S. was willing, in two world wars, to spend trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of the lives of it's citizens to stand up and FIGHT for other people, that impressed the hell out of me when I was a kid. I live in a town whose foundations in WW2 were basically constructed by American servicemen. Those same servicemen arrived like knights in shining armour, and some of them never made it home....all so that the country I live in, and others, could pursue our lives with a generous measure of freedom. Free to do what we wanted, (within reason), free to make a fortune if we so desired, free to be a bum and a welfare dependant, if thats what I wished to do.
I never forgot this.
My mother was around in 1963, when the assassination shockwaves reached our shores. Mum was always skeptical, and one day I asked her why. Turns out, mum had read the official explanation for Jack Ruby shooting Lee Oswald, and it stuck in her craw. "Just to spare Jackie Keneddy a trial," she said, "What a lie. That man (Oswald) should have been allowed to state his case, but somebody obviously wanted him silenced." I asked her why. "Isn't it obvious?", she said, "If Mr Oswald was so incredibly guilty, then why not let justice take it's course? Jack Ruby had something other than Jackie Keneddy's welfare on his mind. I don't think Mr.Ruby had ever met Mrs. Kennedy, and vice versa, so shooting a man before he got to a courtroom to spare the feelings of someone you have never met before and who does not even know you exist...well, thats a lie. If Ruby was lieing, how many other people lied also, to silence what was coming from the mouth of Mr.Oswald." She paused, letting it sink in, "We all liked the look of Kennedy and his nice wife. We all hated The Cold War, and the Kennedies were like a breath of fresh air. They gave us hope that we would not be extinguished in another big war. And all that seem to come to an end in a flash. The fear came back once more to all of us. We wanted to know WHY this sick man had taken all this away from us, this HOPE. For many hours on that day we talked about what could have been a reason....then we heard the news that Mr.Oswald had been killed....and by a man who couldn't come up with a reasonable excuse! We were OUTRAGED! Why had this man taken away our hope again? Surely he wanted to see Mr.Oswald come to justice, just as we did. I knew then that something wasn't right, that there was more to this than met the eye. Maybe, just maybe, Mr.Oswald was SILENCED before he could get to a courtroom to explain himself...but who would want to do that?"
I interrupted..."Someone who didn't want Lee Oswald to explain anything?", Mum sighed, just said, "Yep!", and went back to her knitting.
That stuck with me. NO ONE would want to rub out Lee Oswald, I realised, unless they knew that Mr.Oswald KNEW TOO MUCH. And what could that possibly be, I wondered, how could the wonderful country I had read so much about not want to hear what Oswald had to say?
When I read, "On The trail Of The Assassins", it began to dawn on me, too, that politics is sometimes about keeping your mouth shut, as much as anything else. Everyone knew Mr.Oswald had said "I'm just a patsy"...but for who, and why?....it annoyed me greatly that Jack Ruby had taken all that away from us, this RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT OSWALD KNEW.
Nobody else had attempted to explain WHY before in one book. Everything else I had read had shifted around the edges. They were not whole theories, just nit-picking really. When I read Bonar Meninger's book, it occurred to me that this joker was just bloody guessing. Garrison's book was the only one that gave us even a little of the big picture.
And always, I have been terribly annoyed at Jack Ruby for taking it away from us, and for a reason that was just a terrible lie...anyone could see that.
Now, after all these years, it's plain to me that somebody has to carry the facts of the case in their heads. Those of us that do, can then educate people who try to appear as if they know the reasons. I study military history for the same reason. Most people, even history grads, find military matters extremely confusing, and can never work militarism into their overall understanding of history. I took the opposite tack, starting my journey into any particular period by looking at the military angle FIRST, and then clothing these bare bones with economic, social, and political facts.
I know have an understanding of American history, and other nations, that is better than most Americans, because I understand how americans make war.
November 22nd, 1963 was a Cold War battleground. It deserved my attention, as any other battleground, but because the case was still unsolved in the minds of many people, (officially, it still should be. No trial for Oswald is supposed to equal an automatic PARDON. You cannot comvict someone without giving them the chance to explain their side of the story, which is how our entire justice system works.
Why it had to be different for one of the most important crimes in history is stilla mystery.
Hope this explains...
Well! He is just a passionate guy who I normally disagree with.
Over the years I have seen "grassy Knolls", digital pics, bullets fired into wobbling jelly and dead pigs and a half a dozen conspiracy candidates from LBJ, Giancana, the Mob, and Castro etc.
And I know there will never be a conclusive proof either way but I share VB's Mum instinctive thoughts.
Sure that was rhetorical, but just in case, I'm referring to those absolutely convinced that global warming can only be man-made, everyone who disagrees is a dangerous heretic, and that we're all going to die any day now.
I do actually have my own theory for Jack Ruby's actions.
Ruby was a tool of other people. He also worked, and was answereable to, the American Mafia. That was well known. The Mafia have a very curious way of inducting people into their inner circle. It's fairly obvious to anyone that knows anything about the Mafia, that Jack Ruby was NOT part of their inner circle, (after all, he was described as a "Bag man for the Dallas Mob", not exactly a high position in their organisation). The Mafia have a phrase for it, "A 'Made' man". To become a 'made' man in the Mafia, you have to perform 'favours' to other Mafiosi, often for a long time. The Mafia will come to you and say "What can YOU do for us?", to which you can reply with money("Yes, Don Corleone, I can make you a million dollars if you do this...").
Mafiosi work on favours. Some of those favours, strung together, generate a 'case history' for different 'prospects', (for want of a better word), to gain admittance, become a 'made' man, with all the generosity and protection of other Mafiosi that this entails.
I firmly beleive Jack Ruby, after a long apprenticeship that started with Al Capone, and ended up with Carlos Marcello, that Jack Ruby was, finally, getting to the stage where he was so close to becoming a 'made man' that he could TASTE IT.
In my view, this explains Ruby shooting Oswald, lock stock and barrel. In concert with other directions from shadowy people, (probably CIA...thats who Marcello was taking his orders from), Carlos got a call, asking if he could find a way to get a man into the Dallas Police Station and rub out Oswald before he opened his big trap and dropped everybody into the hands of the dead Presidents BROTHER, the Attorney General, Robert Kennedy.
Carlos, thinking hard, finally settled on a man who had been with his organisation from the beginning, whose loyalty, and ability to follow orders from "The Don" was unquestioned. A man who had police contacts in Dallas....and a man who if the proper carrot was dangled in front of him, could be persuaded that "The Don" would extend his undieing and eternal gratitude to him for performing this 'service'
So, Carlos Marcello gave Jack Ruby a quick call.
The Don:"Hello Jack!"
Jack Ruby:"Oh, hello Don Marcello....what can I do for you"
The Don:"Jack, you've served me and my family for many years. My associates and I believe you deserve a reward for your services to our organisation. What if I told you that Don Traficante has personally asked that you be invited into our 'family', as a reward for all your hard work.?
Ruby:Oh! Don Marcello, you've no idea what this means to me. You know my loyalty to you. It would be an HONOUR to serve you in any way. Grazzi!!! Don Marcello, I would do anything for this...grazzi!
The Don: Hold on, Jack. Before I can bestow this honour on you, there IS something I want you to do for ME. I would consider it a PERSONAL favour.
Jack Ruby: Anything, Don Marcello. What can I do?
The Don: I have recieved word from our people. You have many contacts with Dallas police. I want you to terminate Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack, terminate this man with extreme predjudice.
From what I've read, this is EXACTLY how the Mafia get most of their extremely dirty work done.
and I've got a hunch Carlos Marcello dangled this in front of Ruby, telling him that the Police were on his side, that he could wait for the 'right time' to eliminate Lee Harvey, and somehow melt into the crowd, where his police friends would turn away and let him escape.
This is why, in my view, Ruby hung around Dallas police station like a bad smell. He had already performed a 'service' for the Don at Parkland Memorial. now he was being asked to step up to the plate and get rid of Lee Harvey Oswald for good.
Jack Ruby was a bastard. I hate the memory of that man with a passion for what he took away from us all, and for the sheer number of PROBLEMS that Oswald's murder caused for the reputation of a country I grew up to really admire.
May the memory of Jack Ruby rot eternally in a place worse than Hell.
And Opana, you can make as many godawful jokes as you can, and it won't stop me for a second. I'm thick skinned, and I've heard it all before.
If you want to joke about a serious issue that still pisses off a lot of very ordinary people, go ahead, my son.
Look infantile. I expect better behaviour from my wife's "Special Needs" class.
Agreed, cold blooded murder and no other word for it - I just can't understand those bystanders at the time who apparently applauded! Beggars belief.
Somewhere in this thread it was said that Dallas hangs its head in shame for the assassination of JFK - wrong - Dallas could not prevent Kennedy's death but sure could have and should have prevented Oswald's.
VB I can agree with the amount of hope that was dashed by this assassination........however it could not destroy the hope of those that elected him and as he was gone many things were improved in our government over time despite the absence of him in our government ....as it often happens when a great leader is destroyed by his enemies, his ideas take on a more solid and studied significance bringing unexpected awareness to the issues. If you take the major assassinations in our recent history, you will see this pattern if the person's ideas were important......they did not die with the person. I am loyally an American.....not because we always do the right thing but because we are allowed to dream of ways to improve which may always be something of a hard sell to other citizens, but not impossible. I do think U.S. Government must be reminded constantly to follow and observe the constitution with a great deal of scrutiny, that it is interpreted to take care of all people....not just my kind, as is often the prevalent selfish interpretation we may easily become a participant of. I also think we should always be aware that we are in the early period of this experiment at self government and should be extra observant of how this example portrays to the rest of the world. For how long our government has existed....the countries of the old world measure us often as only a small blip on the time line of an existing government, so we will be under scrutiny by them constantly as they expect us to fail soon. What do you think will happen?.....it teases the mind.
I'm not joking about the topic, but about the poster. Get over yourself.
I don't take conspiracy whacktards seriously. So you provide me with a bit of levity.
What about the revolver?
What an absurd position to take. Indeed the fact that many aplauded Ruby illustrates quite clearly how wrong you are.
Okay since we are all in agreement that Oswald did in fact shoot and kill Officer Tibbit with a revolver and no semi-auto was involved let's move on.
The suspiciously similar writing style of a dime store novel in post #167 makes one ask, (since we are talking about actual facts here); Were these statements taken from actual transcripts?
there will always be conspiracy theories about jfks shooting and the truth will probably never come out about this case for some time yet
This thread will probably still be going.......
Unfortunately you are probably correct in this regard.
"Never come out" "for some time"??? You do realize that that's a self contradictory phrasing don't you?
In any case most of the truth has almost assuredly "come out" and been out for some considerable time.
I believe that Colonel Mustard did it in the study with a candlestick....
I think he did Yvette in the billards room with the candlestick.
Yes, but that's another thread entirely!