Kursk (by popular demand!)

hehe, the old favourite. I'll give it a re-read.

 

The mother thread of all threads....Anyone anything new??

 

They did booby trap military objectives if they could not be destroyed but have not heard about the Russians using POWs to clear runways of mines. Would not doubt it but have not heard of any instances

 

Okay, here goes another week of reading. I think it will be interesting, but it is like a research project. Here goes.

 

Kai can you ID the Tiger unit in your foto ?

 

I've seen a series of photos that look like this one and the tigers had the 'Das Reich' motif on them. Wrong angle here so I cannot see if they have the same. Plus, the camo speaks waffen SS.

 

the Panzer regiment during Kursk of Das Reich camo was not as bold as these Pzjgr, more stripping mish mash.....checked through several sources. Possibly Totenkopf's (th Kompanie but it also maybe GD's and not even at Kursk

E

 

Hmm. Good points. Gave it a shot. My eye is not what it used to be.

 

Found this as same website. similiar camo scheme. This one belongs to the special battalion 505. At least that what the pic says. Could be same? Note the motif on the leftside of turret.

 

I´ll check on that Tiger but like you said Erich might not even be at Kursk because I just took it from the net as a "nicer Tiger pic" here.

Anyway more pics:





And more interesting pics:

http://www.panzer.punkt.pl/artykuly/kursk/kursk-galeria.htm

 

Although not anymore historically valid excellent pics/drawings of the Prokhorovka battle:

!!!!

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/duga/duga.htm

 

sPzAbt 505, Heavy Tank Battalion 505, part of Model's 9th Army.

(Za Rodinu back from the dead! )

 

To further flesh out Za's correct reply a bit- According to Restayn (Tiger I on the Eastern Front) this photo was taken in early July in preparations for the Kursk offensive. The Tiger belonged to the 3rd company of the 505th.
Another photo- which shows the same horses (ok, that's a guess, but it looks pretty obvious!) also shows (theoretically only a few yards away) Tiger #300 of the same unit, which was commanded by a Lt. Roder.

According to Schneider in TiC I, this was the last delivery of late production Tiger Is the unit would recieve.

Although Schneider suggests that few if any Tigers from this unit were total losses during Zitadelle, the combat diary Schneider presents does note that by 8th July, only 3 tanks were still operational.

 

Found this site back in Aug -02

http://www.geocities.com/armysappersforward/kursk.htm

It´s excellent so wanted to tell about it to our newer members!

 

Kiitos Kai-Petri,
The Mine-Countermine Report is superb.

 

The Ninth Army possessed a sufficiency of panzers for operation Citadel, but nowhere near enough infantrymen.The 9th Army entered the battle for Kursk with only 68,747 combat troops. Each of Model´s infantry divisions averaged a "ration" strength of 11,134 and a "trench" strength of 3,296 as compared to Army group South, which had an average ration strength of 17,369 and a trench strength of 6,344.

The 7,223 casualties suffered on 5 July eliminated over 20% of the available infantry in the main attack sector. Model had to change tactics on 6 July whether he wanted or not. The Army having exceeded 10,000 casualties by dawn on 7 July, Model found himself in the unusual tactical situation of being better able to afford tank losses than dead or wounded grenadiers.

Hitler´s commander by S Newton

 

Good posts on this battle, the threads still going after 4 years.......

There seems to be new facts and figures coming out on the battle all the time, such as Nipes version of it.

Perhaps the battle can best be described as a very costly tactical loss but an strategic win for the Soviets.
As for losses, who knows, they vary so much it's hard to get a grip on the true figures.

Soviet losses have been claimed as low as 200 or as high as 822 tanks, but the loss records now show that they were probably between 150 and 300 complete losses, with a similar number damaged. Likewise, German loss claims have reached as low as 80 or into the hundreds, including "dozens" of Tigers.

Any ideas on total armour losses for the whole battle, not just Prokhorovka.

The Russians took control of the field, so I suppose that could repair quite a few of their tanks, while the Germans had to leave most behind.

Would Citadel have succeeded for the Germans if it was launched on May 4th, as originally planned?

 

I think it was the only possibility to win this battle to start it as early as possible as the weather allowed. However the Soviets had a month to recover from the Manstein´s strike so it is possible the attack would not succeed earlier either.

 

Yes, I think that if it did go ahead earlier, it would probably still have failed.

After having the German attack confirmed by the Lucy spy ring, Stalin and some of the Red Army Stavka wanted to strike first. But the majority of the Stavka, and notably Zhukov, advised waiting for the Germans to exhaust themselves in their attack first. Zhukov's opinion swayed the argument. [thank God]

The lead up to the operation was a complete shambles from the German side, and this time it seems it was the Generals, not Hitler that were the main offenders.

Hitler seemed to have cold feet at this stage, and wasn't sure what to do, Manstein wanted the 'Backhand ' operation, but this meant giving up hard won ground, something Hitler loathed, and then Chief of Staff Zeitzler put forward cutting off the Kursk salient, which Hitler agreed to and wanted to move by May 4th.

But then the Generals such as Guderian, who's objections were at the strategic level, whether Germany should attack at all, not whether the plan itself was sound, and latter Model, who kept arguing against it, made Hitler delay it until June 12, and finally until July 4 in order to allow more time for new weapons to arrive from Germany, especially the new Panther tanks.

Would the strengths for the Kursk front of about 900,000 Germans with 2,700 tanks, 2,000 aircraft vs the Russians 1,300,000 men 3,600 tanks and 2,400 aircraft be close?

Still can't find accurate losses though.

 

I am not sure but I´d think the Soviet numbers should be greater. The reserves for the attacks behind Orel and Belgorod should be counted in as they had a decisive role in the later phases in July even though did not take part in the fighting in the beginning of Zitadelle.