Kursk (by popular demand!)

Greetings gentlemen ! at the risk of getting thumped verbally by all all of you do know where Nipes (version) came from correct ?

pick up a copy and be enlightened from George his info is not knew but came from German sources right after the failed battle attempt with the SS panzerkorps

 

Erich I dont know please inlighten me

 

Geroge Nipes " Decision in the Ukraine, Summer 1943, II SS and III Panzerkorps"

copyright 1996.

George took a big gamble when he published his work especially about the Kursk battle which threw every Soviet/US historian into a tizzy as to actual German losses in the southern Salient.

his background for the Kursk work was Sylvester Standlers excellent work "Die Offensive gegen Kursk", 232 pages, 78 photos with many used by Nipe in his work, here is the kicker ( 19 maps). Offical German maps at their finest showing in precise details the German SS Panzers points of contact and retreat. Nipe was bold enough to use these maps and notes as his base. After his work was presented Wolfgang Schneider did his monumental work volumes 1/2 on Tigers in Combat which is a must read for Tiger 1 enthusiasts covering in the 2nd volume the SS panzerkorps struggle with the 3 grenadier divisions and their Tiger 1 Komapnies, giving their true losses and victory claims

 

There's been plenty of good books written on the subject including....

Paul Carell's 'Scorched Earth-The Russian-German War 1941-44' [1970]
Mark Healy's 'Kursk 1943-The Tide Turns in the East' [1992]
Walter S. Dunn's 'Hitler’s Nemesis-The Red Army, 1930-1945' [1994] and perhaps the most definitive book on the battle by David Glantz & Jonathan House 'The Battle of Kursk' [1999]

As to actual overall losses, who knows?


Was the Sylvester Standler you mention, SS-Standartenführer Sylvester Stadler?

 

I would have agree with Anzac on this one. There are many great books on the battle you cant discredit one just because its written by someone from another country. You must look at the overall picture. I doubt that George Nipes had any information about the battle that the Russians didnt have. But it sounds like a novel that I would enjoy.

 

The Soviets did not have German true losses, Nipe had access or maybe the Russian and American authors wanted to ignore .......... Caidins bogus work on the subject "The Tigers are burning" comes to mind.

Great books ....some and yes you can discredit anything if it is all turley one-sde and the authro(s) have not done extensive homework on the subject. We, yes we have taken so much of what we have read as the truth and without question. I have found this since the 1960's especially true of the night air war and the electronics and craft over the Reich until I started interviewing veterans of both sides and looking into captured documentation~ after war reports, that were deemed de-classified. I think the latter is often forgotten and to be of great useage to authors

Stadler one and the same since at the time of Kursk he was in an administrative postion with maps and docs well in his hands

 

Come on Erich, the soviets had more German generals as prisoners then any other nation in the world. In fact Russia had more German generals then Germany by the end of the war. You mean to tell me that the German generals didnt know their own casualties?? Sorry not buying it.

And out of curiousity what makes you think that all the other authors in the world are wrong and your Nipes isnt??? sounds to me like you might have it backwards. And you having a German backround want to protect your peoples prestiege.

 

You are also fogeting that the Germans recorded everything and I mean everything and by the end what wasnt burned pretty much landed in the Soviets hands.

 

Sloniksp

of course the Germans knew their losses. The fact is that nobody would buy the figures they had. You know the winner can tell the truth his way.

Actually I was rather disappointed as the historians during the last dcade have turned the Kursk battle rather upside down. Like it or not. We are here to study history and only the truth matters. The USSR won at Kursk and that´s it. The 5th Guards was beaten. But the Germans lost. Books on Kursk before early 1990´s on Kursk should be studied carefully especially if there are T-34´s ramming Tigers and Panthers. I´m sorry but that´s the way it is.

 

The Soviet side won in the Kursk battle, we all know that, and the Germans were never even close to winning, but the more recent works do bring to the light the fact that the Soviet/German loss ratio was rather more unfavourable to the Soviets than previously thought, and this is to put it mildly.

No need to gang up on Erich, who knows very well what he says most especially on his pet field, and I have his "your Nipes" book on my wish list.

The books before Perestroika, based on German accounts only and also that ineffable Martin Caidin "Tigers are burning" really are no longer of any interest in what concerns the general view of the battle. They may be interesting at tactical view, but above that I prefer the later histories.

 

Kai and Za, very well said I have to say the I do agree. I guess the way the Erich stated his point of view made me a little skeptical, but no harm done. And I have nothing against Erich I guess I just like a good discussion, lol.

Open mind is my middle name.

 

So you have two middle names?

 

hahahahahaha nothing gets past you Za.. shhhhhh its our little secret.

 

as I thought I had previously pointed out G. Nipe is using original German materials copied down during and after the battle. May I suggest a copy of his work unless you can read/understand Deutsch for the volume I mentioned; Nipes book should be read just to view the German portion of things and see wher the southern salient was fought because it is very confusing attack, retreat, and for both sides. Warning the book is repitive but you can get through it easily enough ...... also Tigers in Combat 2 for the SS Panzer Komapnies, all from German sources

 

info on Kursk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM3yrKkoaMo

worth watching

 

thats pretty good

 

Around minute 4, snow? Snow in July? This is a mishmash of other films put together!

 

Good video and the music is great but Za is right last I checked it doesnt snow in Russia in July.

 

well that was agoofy video for sure as I have those very same film footage.

If I may : Deutsche Wocheschau quite a bit chopped up to make a documentary. the only thing closely resembling the Kursk sphere is the beginning with the Das Reich Tiger Komapnie and at the end when it is repeateded again the with same Tiger Koampanies and Pz. Grenaider units.
Second phase of film shows early 40-41 MkIV's and short barreled Stugs not incorporated at Kursk, in fact some of it is Western front.
Winter scenes are a combination W-SS and Heer plus Luftw. Fallschirm. a mix of W-SS on the Ost front grenaiders escorting 6 long barrel stugs which destroy at least that many T-34's, something you do not witness on this film shown. Some of the fottage is also late war spring of 45 on the Western front.
Pics of knocked out T-34's and dead German civilians run over by Soviet tanks are taken from a terrible battle at Ebenrode in Ost Preussia in the fall of 44 where the Soviets lost 400 tanks.
the Luftwaffe nearly crashing on wet fields are JG 2 Fw 190D-9's and Bf 109G-10's of JG 11 on 1-1-45 at Bodenplatte in Belgium.
We then proceed back to the spring muck on the Ost front of 45 with Hetzers and the tri-2cm Fla on half-tracks ........... more mish mash and finally back in 1943 to close with Tigers and grenadiers.

note: there are actually a series of times-tapes/videos of the Germans at Kursk and the Mius in the Deutsche Wocheschau footage ....... all pure propaganda for the German folk back home

thanks for sharing the video

 

Erich,

Just out of curiousity what do u think about the T-34???