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Marine Corps sniper unit poses with SS flag.

Discussion in 'WWII Today' started by Fury 1991, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. 1ST Chutes

    1ST Chutes Member

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    Because 4th Marine Regt has the lineage to all Raider Bn's coming from the redesignation of the Raider Regt. Scout Snipers lineage starts at the Jim Crowe Sniper Course ends in 45. Picks up in a non-organized way in 50 dies in 53-54, reemerges in the 60's with the Jim Land Sniper Course.
     
  2. leccy1

    leccy1 Member

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    Not all Afghanistanie's live in Afghanistan, not all Muslims live in the Middle East, not all are uneducated farmers. It is not just local public support that is being targeted by the insurgents. World opinion matters, impressions given can be used against you so easily. British service personnel have been attacked in the UK several times by British Muslims in response to actions in Afghan and Iraq, there have been numerous clashes between the Right Wing and radical Muslim groups who claim we are no better than Nazi's (Nazi's being more of an negative icon in the Christian West than a Christian Cross), that we are on a crusade to exterminate anyone who is not Christian. We are murderers etc (despite the fact that most Muslims killed are being killed by Muslims).

    Years ago photos like this would be taken and kept by the few in them, now with the net and digital cameras it seems everyone wants to put it all up on public display.
    Westerners can be influenced not just by the imagery but can start to have the feeling that US troops are getting 'gung ho' and not caring about anyone else. Things posted on the net even if just by a few idiots are being blown up and used as a general tool to lessen support, think Vietnam.
     
  3. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    And did you see that bike thingy with mqueen? Swiss fence...In Germany...very suspect to me too Martin...I'm sticking to Timex..
     
  4. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    I was intrigued rather than shocked....I have enough to worry about my own these days without American forces...But intrigued enought to want an explanation...The marines amongst us are going to have to batter their heads against the preverbial brick wall I'm afraid..The marines here on our site have given a good enough explanation..Lets not hammer them over this one...But the marines amongst us must recognise that to anyone not a marine it looks iffy..very iffy...the explanation was needed...We on here can surely accept that, but the problem lies as others say with what others not on here see and think...Its not good..it can and will be used against you...You can say so what...tough...but it should never have happened...Saying that...I just hope the British lancer regiments never pose in Helmand with their regimental flags and badges....The good guys.....they should never wear skulls surely....

    Teacup and storm come to mind certainly...But its certainly an own goal, even if the reasons and situation and history of the flag is understood...What damage has been done? I can clearly and equivically, and with expeerience in such matters state....I haven't got a bloody clue... Semper Fi anyway...I love all marines...Apart from the ones over 6ft and blonde...
     
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  5. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    I though you were still using a sundial
     
  6. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    I would be more worried about Highland Regiments wearing their kilts for a photo on a windy day, some things are just beyond contemplation!
     
  7. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Very true, but, and you knew this but was coming ;) those that are the most educated are joining the Jihad for religious reasons. If they are educated enough to know who the SS were, they also know what they did and killing infidels is not a bad thing. Less so the more radicalized they are. It would not be easy to turn the flag into an issue among their target group, unless it was claimed it was a "Crusader" symbol.

    Yes they do, but (there's that word again) the only places the flag image will be able to do any harm is with those in the west. If you want to argue that it may erode support for the war effort, I might agree, only that's really a non-issue since we are pulling out. Since last April, when my younger son returned from Afghanistan, Marine Corps troop strength has dropped from over 30,000 to around 8,000 or close to 75% reduction in force. The original post I replied to was:
    I do not see it being an advantage for the insurgent Muslim audience. The western audience yes, eroding public support in the west, yes. That is however, not what the poster was suggesting.

    Agreed, we lost that war in the press. The Tet Offensive was a crushing defeat, General Giap in his memoirs even stated so. The public, due to the way the story was framed in the press, saw it as a defeat. There are many Vietnam Veterans that were in Vietnam pre-Tet and in 1969, (my Dad and many of his friends among them) that to this day, feel betrayed by the press and still have a strong distrust and dislike of them. The impressions you get from Veterans who did their first tour from 1970 onwards has a markedly different flavor. Morale and discipline, particularly in the Army was in sharp decline. They went overseas with the impression that the cause was lost and that they were just buying time.

    Or that they know they are in a no win situation and are trying to extricate themselves without further damage. Put yourself in their shoes, would it do any good to explain how the whole thing evolved. Would anyone even read it. Most people here, who I consider of higher than average intelligence and better informed than the general public, didn't even notice the blurb in the article that stated the symbol had been in use for years. It was see what these stupid Marines did. How could they associate themselves with the German SS? When the Marines said they associated the symbol with Scout Sniper, it was assumed they were lying, to cover up a deeper meaning. They couldn't be that dumb. However, when you look at how it transpired, and the fact that it had been used at the very least, for 25 to 30 years. Before these Marines were even born. The innuendo from the story takes on a totally different character. I can tell you what will happen. The logo will become even more popular, as an unofficial design and will be worn by Marines, as sort of a middle finger to the PC crowd. I'll bet it becomes an element in many more tatoos. There will be greater mistrust between the military and the press than already exists. There will be an even greater disconnect between the military and the general public. My friend Chuck that I often talk about, used to be one of my Marines, served a tour Iraq with an Army BCT and extended to work as a sniper and advisor to the Kurds with an SF team. Got out and went back into the Marine Corps Reserves 4th Recon battalion and deployed to Africa and Afghanistan with them. He called me earlier today and asked if he could come by and hang out. I told him sure, bring beer and then asked him his opinion on the topic. He got angry, said screw the PC crowd, those people are crazy, and told me he would be a little later coming over because he wanted to dig his Scout Sniper T-Shirt, with the runes to wear in protest.
     
  8. 1ST Chutes

    1ST Chutes Member

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    I'll say this. The Sig Runes were in use by STA when I was a boot, which is a long time ago. One of my buddies was an 8541 he has a Runes and Kopfjager Tattoo. It was a Scout Sniper thing I knew what they were when I saw them but over time in that environment they just came to mean STA Plt.
     
  9. Biak

    Biak Adjutant Patron  

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    Bob, You know how I feel and where my respect lies. That said, my scratch the head wonderment comes from the very blurb. This is not a new controversy, re the 2004 rifle runes and the earlier yet, Marine ban on tattoo's depicting what could be construed as Nazi symbolism. It could be (has been?) construed due to the "We had no idea it's previous meaning" comment was an attempt at an excuse. Which in itself draws more attention. A further difficulty arises to understand how someone chooses a symbol or logo without understanding it's meaning or if it 'had' a meaning. Generally that is the reason for choosing an emblem. If you own it, Own up to it.
    I wish the scout snipers had said " We take back the right to wear any damned thing we like and we like the 'rune' alphabet graphic of "SS" to signify Scout Snipers". The Third Reich took something and attached an Evil meaning, We take it back to give a new meaning." As I posted earlier too many are too easily offended in this PC World and to them, well we can't say that kind of thing in public now can we?
    I've taken a "poll", and I hate polls, but just for us here I've set aside my own feelings. So far it is running 50-50 pro-con. Okay only two respondents to date but I have asked and waiting on two others to weigh in also.
    A 83 year old WW2 vet replied " Although I have tremendous respect for the Marines, I think this is a juvenile act, which at times some Marines are known to commit. This Icon represents horrendous acts against mankind during WWII and should not be used by our admirable Marines!"
    From a 59 year old Vietnam submariner; " No Big Deal to me".
     
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  10. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Well now bubbleheads are a little daffy to begin with :), but your ratio seems about right.
     
  11. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Your all mad...simply mad....Mrs Foster....get my coat and hat...I'm leaving...
     
  12. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Somebody lock the door after him this time......pleeze :)
     
  13. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Like that guy....Patton ...I shall return....or was that the one with the pipe....Monty never smoked you know....
     
  14. Biak

    Biak Adjutant Patron  

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    Ah crumbs I forgot how old I am and the guy who spent too many days under the waves chasing Whales is 61 not 59. Still waiting from the Major at the Big "P" and a Navy corpsman who spent time with a few Marines in the sands of Kuwait and there-about's back in 91'.
     
  15. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    2nd Div. ?

    I think we have screwed this one into the ground sufficently enough for it to never walk again
     
  16. 1ST Chutes

    1ST Chutes Member

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    STA 1/5
     
  17. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Its a male youth thing...put simply...its cool.
     
  18. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Margaritaville or Mateo ?
     
  19. 1ST Chutes

    1ST Chutes Member

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    Margarita 88-89 time frame.
     
  20. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Roger, I owe you a salute. I'm out today but will hit you up tommorrow. Take care my friend.
     

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