Merkel Apparently Fears Devastating Defeat of the Ukrainian Army

Yes, but is taking part of Ukraine enough? That's the question. Or is it anyhow acceptable that they can take just like that parts of independent country?

 

This is not 1939 and desperate attempts to link Hitler and Putin will not work.
I do not see any great clamour in the UK/Europe to 'defend' Ukraine. Sometimes you just have to see the obvious. This is all about isolating Russia and she decided to bite back . I say to those itching for a fight should shut up. You got your (inevitable) confrontation and got spanked. Recognise reality and learn from your mistakes.

 

Perhaps a better strategy would be to actually listen, and discuss, rather than dismiss out of hand and tell people to shut up. But then you'd run the risk of learning something.

 

Yes it does work, they are using exactly the same excuses to execute aggression against another country. If Ukraine decides to go for democracy instead of too close to Russia, that isn't really isolating. Or has the big bad Nato forced Ukraine to abandon the paradise Russia?

I will defend Ukraine, you like it or not. 1939 was reality to my family when my country was left alone to face this same aggressor we're talking about in 2015. Just different name, same mentality. Are you really saying that me or someone else here wants open conflict? No one wants anymore blood shed.

 

I think those looking for a fight with Russia will use any excuse (real or imagined, past, present or future) to start one.

 

You do that. I am just as determined my grandchildren are not going to help you.

 

I simply say those itching for a fight go and fight. Leave the rest of us out of it. Claiming anyone with an opposing view is less intelligent/informed than you is a bit juvenile.

 

Not what I was claiming at all. That's your inferral. I only claim that there is always some nugget of knowledge to be gained from discussion.

And that's a mildly different sentiment than your original

 

I don't think so. And yes there are a number of way s to stop Russia from doing so. Russia is far from the most powerful country on earth right now. The combined might of the EU and US far exceeds that of Russia even alone each may exceed Russian might depending on just what you are talking about. Violence doesn't always work either. Indeed tightening the economic screws enough while raiseing the risk of using more violence may well prevent that violence.

It may not be 39 but the parallels are certainly there and to deny them is simply anther way of putting your head in the sand.

That may well be. That hardly means that not doing so is the wisest course though does it. Again look at the parallels in the 1930s.

Interesting looking at the above and then this:

You are doing a bit of the Pot calling the Kettle black aren't you? I didn't see anyone here claim that you were less intelllignet or informed but your posts above certainly seem to be implying that about the rest of us. Especially sence what we say hear is unlikly to have any real affect.

 

Just realized this could have been aimed at comments made about Bund. If so it's still off base. None of us who have stated opinions contrary to the Russian positoin have denigrated "anyone with an opposing view" we have rather questioned certain individuals not because they have an opposing view but because their view seems to supported on opinions, fallacy, and propaganda and they have made no attempt to get down to facts, statistics, and logic. Indeed in his case I'm beginning to wonder if something like what is described in the following is coming into play although I have seen others on this board who have similar posting habits but aren't posting along the lines of the following.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htiw/articles/20130212.aspx

 

Better to defend it now with words and economic sanctions than with blood and steel in the not to distant future. It's not just Russia by the way China is looking at these events and if Russia gets away with it they are likely to pull simmilar shenanigans in the Pacific and/or with India. The odds are one or both will keep going until the entire mess blows up and if it goes long enough there's a very good chance nukes will be involved.

 

It is not 'power' that counts but willingness to accept pain/casualties. On those measures The West is less powerful than Russia.
Short of boots on the ground Putin will win. That is a fact of life.
Ukraine has a border with Russia and if she decides to pursue Foriegn Policy objectives crafted in 'the west' then she must also allow for a reaction. I say to Ukraine what af all the neo-con promises to stand by and defend you?
It all seems pointless now. The EU fix is in because the war-mongers were excluded from the table.

 

China is going to take back Taiwan/Formosa one way or another. Either by force of by treaty. I know that. Everyone knows that. Once all the pieces are in place China will move. It will be interestin to see how that one turns out if the world decides to defend Formosa. I predict by the time China moves no one will be 'powerful enough to stop her. That is a lesson in reality. If an objective is vital to one party then other intested parties either make it vital or compromise.
I am not living in fear of Russian expansion. The Russians are no threat to me. I recognise power-politics at play and know other countries have a pro-active policy of isolating and destroying Russia and I refuse to be a pawn in their game. Do not try and involve me in matter that only interest you.

 

That seems a rather strange attitude to take on a forum... It seems to me you got yourself involved, and that there is an aspect that actually interests you.

I'm just trying to understand why you then felt the need to comment, if the matter didn't interest you.

 

It does interest me. It just does not mean my interest is in the direction of 'lets all start a war'. I think those rushing to arms need to be reminded others think they are wrong. 100% wrong.
I have seen much duplicity over the years by all nations. They all lie and cheat. Am I suprised Russia lies? No. However I think she lies no more or less than does the USA. Or Indeed the UK. Or France. Or China. Or Lichenstein.
The Russian bogey-man holds no terrors for me and I am far too savy to fall for one sides propaganda efforts to portray the enemy as the font of all evil in the Universe.
Given the extent of US subversion of the internet can we be sure the 'Chinese and Russian' paid posters are not in fact working under the control of a spotty geek in Langley?

 

No that's an opinion. It may be corrrect it may not be. The west right now can inflict much greater pain on Russia than Russia can on them. That's a good reason in some ways to call Russia to task now. From what I'm reading Russia is already haveing some problems and Putins popularity is droping in some areas because of the "pain/casualties" already inflicted.

Actually that's just another opinion. Certainly they want to but there are other forces and players at work in the game that may preclude that. But that's not all I'm taking about.

Onde they think all the peices are in place they will move. They could be wrong or it could be that they never get all the pieces in place.

That's possible but its also possible that you are wrong or that China (or more accurately the current regime in China) will never get to the point where they feel comfortable doing so.

That seems incredibly shot sighted to me. Too each his own though.

??? Who would that be? Certainly I can't think of any.

I don't think that's an option. Unless somehow you have figured out how to become a more important piece. The only option you have is deciding which side you are on.

You've involved yourself. Don't blame others for that.

 

Excatly! We are now reaping what we sowed in Georgia (and Transnistria). By not helping Georgia and not making it clear to Russia, that slicing Georgia was not ok we sent a message, that the West does not care and the Russians have free hands. We even ignored the Russian (not so) secret operations just before the war and bought the Russian propaganda message of Georgia "starting" the war.

Russia and the Russians (in general) only understand force. Trying to compromise is only interpreted as weakness. Our President recently used a supposedly old Russian saying, which goes something like "a cossack takes everything which is not firmly tied up". Appeasement is seen as an open invitation to rob more, again and again.

Russians (in general) do not understand democracy or equality. For them there are only either masters or slaves - nothing in between. .

 

It should be pointed out (indeed I may have done so earlier) that the precedent for this existed well before the 1930's indeed for those unfamiliar with it here is Kipling's poem on the issue. From:
http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.html

For those that prefer an audio version try:
http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=vxz8P7JA_Zo
Of guess I should point out that from what I recall Alfred the Great got away with it once or twice and used the time to build up an army that could defeat the "Danes".

 

Worked for the Romans too, well... for a while. Until Rome got pillaged. But hey! They had fun phornicating in the interrum!

 

What the hell are you talking about? Itching for a fight. Jesus wept...