Nazis, Germans, Wehrmacht...

Why avoid it? Isn't it pretty much a litteral translation of their official name?

 

I can see your point, and it is not without merit, but I could counter with the large number of 'Volks duesch' in Hitler's army as well as other minor nation auxilleries whom we generally refer to as 'German'.

The 'British' army of North Africa, Italy, NW Europe and Burma which was at best only partly 'British'.

The 'Free French' army which included the Not so free Algerians.

When we talk about individual units we usually give them their due, but when we talk about the actions of armies or army groups we routinely lump them into the nation who commanded them.

While I know there were Ukrainian or Belorussian Fronts in the war, they were given the name for the area of operations not for nationality of the troops that made them up. Was there a 17th Ukrainian Rifle Division, or a 5th Estonian Tank Brigade, or were they known as simply as 17th Rifle and 5th Tank?

Within the US the second generation of divisions formed were state national guard formations who played up their unit history but this had no official recognition, they were simply known as the 28th or 36th Infantry.

 

I put it this way; when referring to the German military I would refer to it as that, not the Nazi military. When it comes to concentration camp units or Waffen SS units (namely 3rd SS) or any German who supported the NSDAP in general, I would refer to them as Nazis. When it comes to someone like Rudel, I would refer to him as a Nazi, regardless if he was in the Luftwaffe or not, he was a fanatic of the Nazis. Lets face it, we all have our own way of saying things, and that will never change.

 

I am sorry; but, if the flag your troops are fighting under has a swastika on it you're a NAZI.

All of the branches of the Whermacht were part of the Nazi mechanism, regardless of the political beliefs of the individual soldier, they enabled the Nazi ideal.

 

That must mean every Russian soldier was a communist who fought to rape German women and to treat Germans harshley and put them in gulags. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you can't always relate a soldier to his government. I know Afghanistan vets who hate Obama but still decided to join up and fight for their country. Does that mean that since Obamas a democrat that every soldier is fighting for a democratic America? I've spoken to friends of mine who are German who had relatives who were in the German military during WWII and they said Hitler was an *******, does that still make them Nazis? There is a difference in fighting under a government and fighting for a government.

 

You might still need to move it yet Lou

 

Call it however you want. The Nazis invaded Poland, the Nazis invaded Russia, the Nazis were resposible for the deaths of MILLIONS of people during the second world war. I don't care about the individual political beliefs of the soldiers. At the end of the day the Whermacht was an organization of a fanatical Nazi regime. So, saying: "the Nazis did this or the Nazis did that" is accurate regardless if you are referring to Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine or SS.

I think it's just marvelous that individual German soldiers can say that they weren't Nazis, it doesn't change the fact that they enabled the Third Riech to do the things they did.

You say that not every German soldier volunteered and that most were conscripts. That's fine, I get that.

So, what was the penalty for not submitting to conscription; was it death, imprisonment what was it?

 

As pointed out by others that's rather a different case. The USSR was a conglomeration of a number of countries and specifically acknowledged that point. Having foreign troops in your army is rather a diffent thing.

I dissagree. Now if you had said "English" army you would have been correct. But the British army in those places was the army of the British Commonwealth which included a number of nations, territories, and colonies.

They may or may not have been "free" but Algeria was a French colony so they count as French troops.

 

You know what I am talking about but I'll spoon feed it if you want: "If you were in the German Army from 1939-1945 and the flag or equipment you carried into battle was inscribed or emblazoned with a swastika you were a member of the Third Reich and member of a Nazi organization.

There is a distinction between being a Nazi and being just a Nazi soldier; that's what I have been tryingto say all along. That distinction does not absolve them of the responsibility of their actions.

That is correct. That person is also joining to support and defend The Constitution of the The United States and follow the orders of those appointed above them to include the President of the United States.

Be very careful drawing similarity between Nazis and Marines.

 

According to this site, there were consequences to refusing a conscription order and even taking the oath but it doesn't say what they were.

DöW - Documentation Center of Austrian Resistance

Once you were in the Wehrmacht the only way you could get out was by being deemed ill.

I can see how one can say the Wehrmacht was a Nazi organization but not in the same vein as the S.S., the Nazi's only had control of the Wehrmacht in the same way any nation does for its military. The S.S. for example is more of a Nazi organization since it was founded by the party years before they took power. The Wehrmacht however existed since the end of World War I.

It's difficult to overlook what happened to Wehrmacht command, specifically those who refused its ideals, the most famous is perhaps the Blomberg Fritsch Affair. Does this mean the term can or cannot apply? I don't know, it's simply context for the end result.

Also, what was the official name of Germany under Nazism? My understanding is the term "Nazi Germany" is used to denote the historical time period and not a self dubbed term. If this is correct, saying the flag is what calls you a Nazi is incorrect. The Nazi party flag was the official flag of Germany in the same vein as the Union Jack, Star Spangled Banner, etc.

And the Swastika has a history beyond Nazism in various Eastern Religions, Native American myths, etc.

Edit: On the actions of the Wehrmacht, something to consider. A thought among various veterans post war was they were victims of Nazism and perpetrators of its actions either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

Joining, allowing conscription, and then doing unto others what you avoided is wrong and not a justification.

The Nazis had control over the entire German Military, the SS were just the most resolute. Hitler was the Leader of the German people, he was a Nazi.

The name of Germany under Nazism is the "Third Reich" or "Gross Deutches Reich"

German National Flag 1933-45


Marine Jack (Union Jack) 1933-45

Riech War Flag 1938-45

(List of German flags - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)




And the Swastika has a history beyond Nazism in various Eastern Religions, Native American myths, etc.

As long as they accept what they did was wrong and are willing to accept accountability for the actions of their military, which they were part of .

 

The Kriegsmarine marine Jack is not the same thing as the Union Jack. That is only flown by British vessels.

 

I used the parenthesis to denote comparison as it's the same application.

The Jack flown by the US Navy is also refered to as "The Union Jack", although it's official title is the "Navy jack"

Flag of the United States Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Sorry but I don't see what this has to do with anything. Soldiers were not able to enable/disable conscription acts.

My point was to say it is a Nazi organization is not entirely accurate, the S.S. is a prime example of a Nazi organization since it was created by the Nazi's. Here is a good list,

Category:Nazi organizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With this in mind, you can't really use the term Nazi like you can American, Canadian, etc. And I don't see what the flags have to do with anything, the flag doesn't name a citizen.

This is a very naive/simply way of looking at it. Excluding shellshock and such traumas, you realize millions would come home from the front, come to terms with what happened, and have to/had lived with it for the rest of their lives? They would be reminded of it when they are shunned by society, called criminals by their children, witness wrong interpretations, etc. It's great to see it so simplified in a way that is basically saying "just apologize for your service".

But there is no point in arguing this with you, we've done it many times in the past already...

Anyway, another way to look at this is the term Nazi can be/is used to describe a subset of the Axis. We can further break it down into Wehrmacht and S.S., even further to Heer, Kreigsmarine, Waffen S.S., etc. You can't properly discuss history by saying things like "the Nazi's in Africa" to describe Afrika Korps since that would be the incorrect use of the term when you are describing something at that level of detail. Basically, generalizations that would lead to misinterpretation of events, history, etc should be avoided when possible.

 

In the same way saying all pre 1943 Italians are fascists is wrong in terms of politics, but it is a convenient way to differentiate between the two sides in Italy after the armistice. It can however lead to misinterpretations of the motives of Italians who fought both before the armistice and afterwards in the GNR.

 

That's a pretty good way to put it, I guess it's a good way to describe that time period but should be put into context when ever possible.

And my previous post: After reading it a few times it seems to sound a bit too aggressive in some areas. Apologizes if this is the case to anyone impacted, it was not my intent.

 

Look at it however you want and call me as naive and simple as you may, the end result is that the Whermacht was part of the Nazi regime and a very large part of the Third Reich.

Did the Nazis invade Poland?
Did the Nazis invade France?
Did the Nazis invade Russia?

Was Adolf Hitler in charge of the military?
Was Adolf Hitler a Nazi?
Was the Whermacht part of the German Military?

Do you accept the fact that the Whermacht was a tool of the Third Reich?