NEVER FORGET

dp

[ 21. May 2003, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

What was it Mcarthru said, Ill be back, or Arnie or one of em...got to go to work earn some money so I can play on here.

But a quick comment, there were differences, and numbers of dead are not my major argument here, one barbaric murder is no better than a guy going round killing 6 or 7, figures mean nothing in relation to barbarity.

 

No seriously ww2 Buff I dont have a problem with you. I thought that your posts on the Vietnam war were very fair and intresting. Everyone has a right to an opinion, and just saying that what did the Japanese do to you is just something I said as when you came on screaming about the Japanese was a little harsh. I do not forgive the Japanese, even though I do not hate them. My Great Uncle was 6ft tall, he was very healthy and when he came out of a PoW camp in Burma he was 5 stone. The Japanese have not done anything to me directly, in all reality i should forgive the Japanese, but they did very cruel things. These are hard things to forgive, but once again we cannot blame people for the actions of their grandfathers.
But no way dude, your not being paranoid .

I think Im gonna bow out of this thread now as it just seems pointless. We havent really accomplished much here have we ?

Jet

 

So lemme guess... now you're gonna backtrack and say that no one group is any worse than another...

I figured that would happen...


And of course, no answer. Figures.

Heartland- very well put. Agreed- that is one of the major factors. Clue me in here- as I've mentioned, the Pacific theatre is not my area of study. How government-organized were the Japanese atrocities? I kind of get the idea that in the case of the Japanese, is was more along the lines of massive neglect and disorder. The japanese captors could treat their POWs however they wished- starving them, beating them, no medical treatment, etc. But I have not ever heard of any Japanese government order or similar which approved/directed the horrible treatment of prisoners... was there such a thing?
With the Nazis... their extermination programs were actually part of the government and directed by those in power.

Andy, well said. And that is a VERY good one about the cure for cancer. Sad thing is how true that line could be in so many areas.

Jet... I'd say some of the discussion has been pretty interesting actually. Probably not really anything else to say on this one... but that last post of yours... well... well said and enough said.

 

Why bow out if you have a point of view?

I thought that too, BUT its not going to happen, the threrad may very well end up being closed. But I aint bowing out. Ill say again, the Japanese of today are a world away from the Japanese of ww2, but its not up to us, its up to the vets to forgive and forget, not us.

The Japanese of today certainly cannot be held up for their forbears actions no more than any other nation.

The 14th armys biggest gripe in ww2 and the vets still today is that they were the forgotten army, ok lets prove them right then.

I certainly wont back down on racial slurs then being told what christianity preaches to us, we aint all religious, and the mention of Confucious et al...For other threads that lot, religion and racism does not belong here, we aint all religious, and the great books are the perfect example of contradictory works. But thats a whole other thread or even forum.

Bushido is what has got us to this thread and the awry misinterpretation of it by troops in the field, not numbers of dead but Bushido supported in the name of the emperor by all of Japan in those years, Bushido a warriors code for the Samurai interpreted wrongly by the Japanese fighting man in ww2. Not helped by the Japanese field manual altered in parts by General Tojo.

In difference to Crazy, I will agree with him that one vets story although not cancelling out another is useless in this debate, as some will forgive some wont, my own mixing with British vets points out to me that most Brisiah vets do not. They do though have as much a greiveance with successive British govts on compensation issue but thats another matter.

The far east vets and their families in the UK are still expressing their views of the Japanese, almost to the point of nvda on the occasions that Japanese royalty has visited the UK. Thats a fact, ignore it by all means but it wont make it go away.

We on here can forgive and forget, or not, everyone is an indivdual with his own views,
no debating here will change those views just like in religion or politics, debate on forums is worthless in those areas, what should be debated is why it happened and understand why vets and I dont know the feelings of USA vets but why vets are still aggrieved with Japan.

What cannot happen is that folk on forums like this start to get out of order with people with an opposite view, pulling up things that they should do because man should forgive and forget how else do we go on etc etc...Thats their view and their right to stated that view, they cannot though force it on others and bring the debate down to a personal level as Ive seen in this one.

I myself have stated from very first post that Japan of today is not responsible and not at fault.Ive also constantly stated its down to the vets to forgive, and yet I still get the posts along the line of why I dont like the Japanese, just plain old newsgroup/forums hogwash.

As an aside, Jet, you state in one of your responses to WW2buff, that you know of no rapes etc apart form ones in nanking etc...
This I will say to you as an aside not to persuade you of the debate one side or another and not to carry on with the stories, there are lots of stories from all theatres of operations.

But while the baynoting of the wounded in hospital beds in Hong Kong was occuring the some Japanese troops were taking the allied nursing staff into rooms and raping them, Then Canadians who objected were killed on the spot.

No less different than Russia or any other theatres Iknow..but it happened its documented, you wanted to know.

The vets have to forgive and forget.
Thats up to them. Not me.

My interest is in why this happened? Not just a case of to the conqueror the spoils but why Bushido was taken so out of context to allow so many barbaric acts. Bushido in its purest form is meant to be an honourable tradition with moralistic tones. And specifically points out the way the conqured should be treated.

 

Anything, or just completely dodge it?



"Deabte on a personal level".. you mean like calling someone's question stupid?

[ 21. May 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

 

No not at all working my way through, and will respond dont worry and nice to see you waiting on my word.

Im still waiting for you on my point previous to that one which you seem to have in your words dodged...that will be coming soon when you have time too?

 

Yes Ill feel free to respond in kind in calling someones question stupid, especially when before that the thread has been made personal with intimating posters are racist in their views.

Once it starts theres no stopping it is there?

I;ll feel free to defend in like manner once the first stone has been thrown, you see thats human nature, as your own posts go to prove.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and numbers of dead are not my major argument here, one barbaric murder is no better than a guy going round killing 6 or 7, figures mean nothing in relation to barbarity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So lemme guess... now you're gonna backtrack and say that no one group is any worse than another...

I figured that would happen...

================================

I really should read you posts in full shouldnt I crazy I keep going past em

Id suggest you step back and stop being insulting in your ascertions on what I will be saying next.

Although Im glad you seem to be paying me so much attention even to the point on searching through other threads.

No your incorrect I am not saying/.... and you are probably reading past my posts too then by the looks of it..Because you dont seem to be able to read what I have said, I do and I will repeat if for you again, I do think that the Japanese were of ww2 were worse than any other troops, has that sunk in now, no backtracking no sidetracking its what I have said before, do you want me to state it again, are you listening, they were worse than other troops in ww2.

I figured that would happen...well you figured wrong dear boy, just goes to show your preconceptions in action.

 

Err - gents, I really enjoy my discussions with both of you on these Forums so can we cool off a little here ?

Thanks -

 

Blah is better than blah, killing in this way is so much worse than in that way, yakadey yakadey yack yack. Sorry, this is pointless. War is wrong, killing is wrong, torture is wrong and who does it is irrellivant. The fact is that the Germans were no worse than the Japanese, the Japanese were no worse than the Germans. What happened was WRONG no matter what the motive or who did it.

Then comes the issue of forgive or forget, well never forget, EVER! As for forgiving, that depends on the person. I have met Japanese veterans before, including a Major who fought at the battle of Kohima. At the same meeting was a British veteran, he had been an officier at the same battle and the two talked and from what I heared are good friends. Frankly if these two men could achieve reconciliation then I do not see why I can not forgive him. On the other hand I once met a man who was a Totenkopf veteran, I thought there was something weird about him and later learned that he was still very right wing and actually bragged about the things he did. The two men I have described are very different individuals but I doubt I could bring myself to forgive the SS veteran who feels no remorse etc. As for the young people of Japan, what is there to forgive? It is childish and racist to condemn a generation for the actions of his forefathers. All I am saying is that you can't condemn an entire race or even generation for what happened, otherwise you are also damning men like my mates grandfather, a doctor who helped people in the ruins of Tokyo and Hiroshima. Amongst all the evil or nasty characters there were good men, there were also 'average' men, who didn't do evil things or particularly good things, they just lived as best they could during a dificult time.

The way I see it our job is to forgive, not to forget.

 

Urgh, if you're curious about ANY of my thoughts on this issue- Stefan summed them up quite as well as I could have.

And he saved me the time of typing them- Thanks, Stefan!

Damn straight.
(Stefan, while you're at it, I could use some help with the South Carolina State Standards for... ahh, never mind. Crazy's screwed no matter how ya cut it...)


(Crazy shakes his fist at Carl, PzJgr, and all other Texans- look what you started!!!)


(joking!)

 

As for forgiving, that depends on the person.

And that person is the vet involved...and that says it for me, and thats stated in every one of my posts on here. maybe not last 3...

I have nothing to forgive and the Japanese of today have nothing to be forgiven for.

 

GROUP HUG !!!!

(BTW, I want to use this opportunity to FORGIVE my German teacher, but I'll never FORGET: "Mr. Schulla, if you can read this, you were ranking at #1 on my "Most-hated-individuals-on-this-planet"-list, and I let you know that I regarded you more sadistic, unjust, aggressive and cruel than all nazis together, but here I am and I say: I FORGIVE YOU!)

Cheers,

 

Familiar with this...?

 

Oh NO!!!! THE TELLITUBBIES Run!! HIDE!! Git out the Shotguns!!! Quick!

 

Ha ha ha ha...good one Kai. But....erm....how can I put this. Where did you get the picture from Kai ? Just curious

Jet

 

Jet,

oh the pic...From the net of course...


Oh, but we can have fun as well with the Teletubbies...

The Teletubbies Drinking Game

First, obtain a copy of a Teletubbies episode, your favorite beverage, and a VCR. You know the rest. Before the episode starts, each participant chooses a Teletubbie. More than one person can choose the same one.

Whenever:

The Teletubbies say "Hello" - One drink
Teletubbies say "Uh Oh" - One drink
Teletubbies say "What's that?" - One drink
Teletubbies repeat what the narrator says - One drink
A Teletubbie's ass honks (usually when they sit or fall down) - One drink
A Teletubbie rolls around and bells jingle - One drink
The windmill spins - One drink
You see one rabbit (not in background) - One drink
You see more rabbits (not in background) - One drink per
See one megaphone - One drink
See more megaphones - One drink per
See the sun (not laugh) - One drink
See the sun (it's laughing) - Two drinks
Teletubbies do something in succession - Two drinks
They show the Nu-Nu (The vacuum dude) - Two drinks
A Teletubbie has his/her toy* - Two drinks
All the teletubbies have their toys* (at the same time) - Everyone slams
"Your" Teletubbie gets the video in it's tummy - Slam your drink
"Your" Teletubbie does something first (starting a succession) - Slam your drink

http://www.ringthis.com/tv_drinking_games/teletubbies.htm

OR

if you´re totally annoyed by the gang this one´s for you ( NO children allowed...)

http://www.artbeel.com/teletubbies.html

 

Yeah... Now I'm wondering about that too, Kai.

Big Teletubbies fan, eh??



[after seeing Kai's same-time post...]

Whee... Tele-Tubbie-shoot-n-splat game...

Wheeeee....

[ 21. May 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]