P-51 Mustang, best Allied fighter or not ?

Supermarine Spiteful

Thats what I've read though the aircraft was to progressively embrace a new fuselage.

Something I've never understood is why despite it being designed from around November 1942 it was still a relatively short range aircraft with a range of around 560 miles clean.

The need for range was clear by this time and the Mustang had shown what was possible yet the Spiteful was still short range compared to the other allied aircrfat being developed at the time.

Does anybody have any figures for the fuel load of the Spiteful and the MB5?

 

Corsair

Our Fleet Air Arm was desperate for any high performance aircraft and would take anything you would give us.

The nose did cause deck handling problems - it was hard to see over the nose but as I said, we were desperate and just told our pilots to weave while taxiing (I think the Corsair also had an approach pattern that was unique to it but I cant be sure).

As I mentioned the wings were clipped (by about 16") so we could get them into our hangers.

When the USN saw how the FAA was coping and needing a high perfromace aircraft to counter the Kamikazes it ended it ban on their use from carriers.

 

best of

This is usually what a 'best 'insert aircraft/ship/vehicle type here' turns into

http://www.tgplanes.com/Public/snitz/to ... TOPIC_ID=7

 

Ah well. We've had plenty and none of them reached an actual conclusion, except for the worst tank of WW2, which turned out to be the horrible Bob Semple tank from New Zealand.

 

The point isn´t to reach any conclusions, but to have fun and maybe learn a thing or two while having it.

 

Agreed

As for the Mustang / Spitfire...

The Spitfire MkXIVs were in service before the P-51Ds, and the P-51Hs didn't see service in WWII, so overall except a very short period of time when the P-51B/Cs were available and the MkXIVs weren't the Spitfire was faster and more manouevrable.

The original P-51 as ordered by the RAF actually had quite a heavy armament, off the top of my head I believe it was 4 20mm cannon in the wings and 2 HMGs in the nose, but I will check and confirm, although it has to be said this had nowhere near the performance of the later P-51Ds.

PMN1, regarding the CA15 according to one site I've seen it actually reached 502.2 mph in level flight, if true this would make it the 2nd fastest piston engine fighter of all time, also from Corsarius's posts you chould know that the 20mm cannon layout was just one of the armament options considered.

I do have production figures for most of the common WWII planes, although not to hand. I'll dig out the relevant ones and post soon.

 

P-51B thru P51H - 15,357 machines in service starting in spring, 1942.

F4U-1 and F4U-4 - 12,571 Machines produced starting October 30, 1942.

Spitfire Mk.1 thru Mk. XIV - 20,531 machines produced starting in June, 1937. (Three cheers for the Brits, that's a lot of aircraft!)

These dates are streamlined. I didn't take the time to list design, first prototype flight, first combat, first wing, etc.

(Complete Book of World War II Combat Aircraft - Angelucci, Enzo 1988)[/b]

 

CA-15

I read that as well but got the impression it was after a dive - will have to look more closely next time.

 

Re: Corsair

The Corsair pilots basically sideslipped their planes while landing on a carrier, to see where they were going by flying at an angle to the ship. They straightened the plane out just before touchdown. Tricky, but it worked.

 

Re: Spitfire vs Mustang

Yeah, but we should remember that Mustang was "nothing to write home about" -high altitude fighter before they replaced those Allisons with licence-build Merlins.

 

Re: Spitfire vs Mustang

Yeah, but we should remember that Mustang was "nothing to write home about" -high altitude fighter before they replaced those Allisons with licence-build Merlins.[/quote]

That was due to its Alison engine, which was designed for best performance at low altitude. The P-40 had a similar engine.

 

Re: Spitfire vs Mustang

Yes, but oddly enough, P-38 used same engines and was efficient as high altitude fighter.
Edit: Found reason for that: P-38's Allisons had turbosuperchargers and engines planted to other fighters were just supercharged.

 

Eric Brown was a WW2 FAA fighter pilot who became a test pilot and ended up flying everything he could. He has written several books comparing the planes he flew - well worth seeking out. He rated the P-51 as an efficient fighter, but the Spitfire was more of a 'pilot's aeroplane' - more responsive and agile.

IIRC he rated the Spitfire XIV as the finest fighter of the war and his prime choice to fight an air battle with. Of course, that only applied within the Spit's range; the Mustang could go a lot further. The Spit could be fitted with long-range 'ferry' tanks, but these unbalanced the handling so AFAIK were not used in combat.

Tony Williams

 

Re: Spitfire vs Mustang

Primary function Fighter
Power plant One Rolls-Royce Merlin 45 engine
Thrust 1,440 HP 1,074 kW
Wingspan 36.8 ft 11.23 m
Length 29.9 ft 9.12 m
Height 11.4 ft 3.48 m
Weight empty 5,100 lb 2,313 kg
max. 6,786 lb 3,078 kg
Speed 374 mph 602 km/h
Ceiling 37,000 ft 11,280 m
Range 470 mi 756 km
Armament 2x 20mm cannon, 4x 7.7mm machine gun
Crew One
First flight Prototype 5.3.1936 (Mk.IA)
Date deployed July 1938 (Mk.IA)
1940 (Mk.VC)
Number built 20,334 (all versions incl. postwar)
Primary function Fighter
Power plant One Rolls-Royce Griffon 69 engine
Wingspan 35 ft 10.67 m
Length 32.9 ft 10.03 m
Height 13.4 ft 4.08 m
Wingarea 210 sq ft 19.51sq m
Weight empty 7,350 lb 3,334 kg
max. 9,950 lb 4,513 kg
Speed 483 mph 777 km/h
Ceiling 42,000 ft 12,800 m
Range 564 mi 908 km
Armament 4x 20mm cannon
Crew One
Date deployed 1945
Number built 18
Just some data you might find useful

and from the same source.

Primary function Long range fighter
Contractor North American Aviation Inc.
Power plant One Allison V-1710-81 engine
Thrust 1,125 HP 839 kW
Wingspan 37 ft 11.28 m
Length 32.25 ft 9.83 m
Height 12.2 ft 3.71 m
Wingarea 233 sq ft 21.65 sq m
Weight empty 6,855 lb 3,110 kg
max. 10,610 lb 4,812 kg
Speed 390 mph 628 km/h
Initial climb rate 2,600 ft/min 792 m/min
Ceiling 30,000ft 9,144 m
Range 450 miles 724 km
Crew One
Armament 4x 12,7mm machine gun
First flight October 26, 1940 (NA-73 -also referred to as NA-73X)
Date deployed 1943
General characteristics P-51D
Primary function Long range fighter
Power plant One Packard V-1650-7 (license-built Rolls-Royce Merlin) liquid-cooled V- 12 engine
Thrust 1,590 HP 1,186 kW
Wingspan 37 ft 11.28 m
Length 32.25 ft 9.83 m
Height 13.65 ft 4.16 m
Wingarea 235 sq ft 21.83 sq m
Weight empty 7,640 lb 3,466 kg
max. 12,110 lb 5,493 kg
Max. speed 437 mph 703 km/h
Initial climb rate 3,478 ft/min 1,060 m/min
Ceiling 42,000ft 12,800 m
Max. range 2,068 miles 3,328 km
Armament 6x 12.7mm machine gun MG53-2 (270 or 400 rounds each), 2x 454kg bombs or 2x external tank.
Crew One
Date deployed 1944
Cost $50,985
Number built 15,621 (all types)
I know it is long but this suggest the max speed of the spitfire with the griffeon engine was faster than the p51d. however only 18 were made. We all have our own thoughts on the best fighters in ww2. personally I like the hawker hurricane.

http://www.military.cz/military_en.htm

seems to have some good data.

 

Re: Spitfire vs Mustang

Primary function Fighter
Power plant One Rolls-Royce Merlin 45 engine
Thrust 1,440 HP 1,074 kW
Wingspan 36.8 ft 11.23 m
Length 29.9 ft 9.12 m
Height 11.4 ft 3.48 m
Weight empty 5,100 lb 2,313 kg
max. 6,786 lb 3,078 kg
Speed 374 mph 602 km/h
Ceiling 37,000 ft 11,280 m
Range 470 mi 756 km
Armament 2x 20mm cannon, 4x 7.7mm machine gun
Crew One
First flight Prototype 5.3.1936 (Mk.IA)
Date deployed July 1938 (Mk.IA)
1940 (Mk.VC)
Number built 20,334 (all versions incl. postwar)
Primary function Fighter
Power plant One Rolls-Royce Griffon 69 engine
Wingspan 35 ft 10.67 m
Length 32.9 ft 10.03 m
Height 13.4 ft 4.08 m
Wingarea 210 sq ft 19.51sq m
Weight empty 7,350 lb 3,334 kg
max. 9,950 lb 4,513 kg
Speed 483 mph 777 km/h
Ceiling 42,000 ft 12,800 m
Range 564 mi 908 km
Armament 4x 20mm cannon
Crew One
Date deployed 1945
Number built 18
Just some data you might find useful

and from the same source.

Primary function Long range fighter
Contractor North American Aviation Inc.
Power plant One Allison V-1710-81 engine
Thrust 1,125 HP 839 kW
Wingspan 37 ft 11.28 m
Length 32.25 ft 9.83 m
Height 12.2 ft 3.71 m
Wingarea 233 sq ft 21.65 sq m
Weight empty 6,855 lb 3,110 kg
max. 10,610 lb 4,812 kg
Speed 390 mph 628 km/h
Initial climb rate 2,600 ft/min 792 m/min
Ceiling 30,000ft 9,144 m
Range 450 miles 724 km
Crew One
Armament 4x 12,7mm machine gun
First flight October 26, 1940 (NA-73 -also referred to as NA-73X)
Date deployed 1943
General characteristics P-51D
Primary function Long range fighter
Power plant One Packard V-1650-7 (license-built Rolls-Royce Merlin) liquid-cooled V- 12 engine
Thrust 1,590 HP 1,186 kW
Wingspan 37 ft 11.28 m
Length 32.25 ft 9.83 m
Height 13.65 ft 4.16 m
Wingarea 235 sq ft 21.83 sq m
Weight empty 7,640 lb 3,466 kg
max. 12,110 lb 5,493 kg
Max. speed 437 mph 703 km/h
Initial climb rate 3,478 ft/min 1,060 m/min
Ceiling 42,000ft 12,800 m
Max. range 2,068 miles 3,328 km
Armament 6x 12.7mm machine gun MG53-2 (270 or 400 rounds each), 2x 454kg bombs or 2x external tank.
Crew One
Date deployed 1944
Cost $50,985
Number built 15,621 (all types)
I know it is long but this suggest the max speed of the spitfire with the griffeon engine was faster than the p51d. however only 18 were made. We all have our own thoughts on the best fighters in ww2. personally I like the hawker hurricane.

http://www.military.cz/military_en.htm

seems to have some good data.

 

trust me, far more that 18 griffon Spits were made!

 

Griffin Spits and Seafires

1,800 + Spitfire and 750 + Seafires - i recently read (again) that the Navy considered the Seafire inferior to the Sae Fury and only carried on ordering the Seafire (and thus having two fighter types at a time of austerity) to keep Supermarine in business until they produced their first jet fighter - a return to the pre war approach of drip feeding key suppliers.

 

Well, you can have your Spitfires and Mustangs, I'll stick to the Corsair.

 

Damn good choice.

According to one article I read the only reason the Mustang was ordered in the first place was because the USAAF couldn't bear to order a USN/MC plane!

 

I can only say what I find, have you some other info. Where can I find the details please.