pampa14's Aviation Click Bait

The "operational" Me262 debate is a longstanding one; it depends on the definition of operational...

By the time the Gloster Meteor went "operational, the Me262 was still not "operational" by RAF/USAAF standards I.E. it was being flown by Ekdo 262 for tactical development and operational testing I.E. trying out ways of actually using the 262....in live combat when Ekdo 262 pilots encountered Allied aircraft...

But I checked some time ago with Hendon on their definition of "operational" and it was much more stringent; as in - "operational" in the RAF meant rostered for normal squadron duties...and thus, by RAF standards, the first Meteors arriving with No 212 Sqn at Culmhead, Somerset (transferring a week later to Manston) were "operational" before the Me 262.

They didn't sortie operationally until the 27th of July 1944, against V1s, but as far as I've been able to check they were indeed rostered in squadron service from the 12th. Not their fault they weren't actually used for another fortnight!

 

Operational means it can go on operations...simple people.
The 262 was the first passed for operations...full stop.

 

It is interesting how much a P-51 (non-bubble canopy) looks like a BF109 when it is wearing a German Dress.

 

Good eyes Denny...i can see shapes of 109 and spitfire in her design...if the designers were on the ball..it SHOULD look alot like these types...

 

No. That's one definition and there are several. It's also worth considering that none of the western allies would have accepted the Me-262 as being operational due to its incredibly poor availability rate. Even the German engineers responsible for the engines knew and stated it wasn't ready yet. The fact that the Me-262 saw combat was due to the untenable position the LW was in and not the merits or readiness of the plane for service.

 

...remembering however that Ekdo 262 was full of one-offs, prototypes, and pre-production aircraft!

What Ekdo 262 was doing was flying all sorts of experimental mission profiles...as we'd put it nowadays...to lay down the tactics and techniques for flying and fighting the 262 WHEN it became operational - but to do that happened to require contact with the enemy

 

The red FW-190 was the personal mount of a squadron CO...

 

Thanks for the compliment, but actually.....no.
I thought it WAS a BF109.
Took me a minute to figure out the title of the thread...the pictures...what I was seeing.
Then I realized they were re-painted Ally Planes..... :huh:

 

So you meant its amazing how much a 109 looks like a P-51... : )
Even little changes can alter the look of an aircraft...

 

You say NO, then accept it is one definition...the only definition ive heard of in the military. Seeing combat is irrelevent...its about whether it has been passed for operations...not testing...not unlucky intercepts...passed. Lucky your not the only one who knows about aircraft...

 

The "Zirkus Rosarius" was a special squadron within the WW2 Luftwaffe that tested captured airframes. Not only were there American types flown, but British types as well. The purpose of testing allied aircraft was to discover any strengths or vulnerabilities in their design or performance. This information was highly useful in enabling German service personnel to develop tactics designed to counter strengths and exploit any vulnerabilities. There were two Spitfires captured and flown, an LF Mk.IX and a PR Mk.XI. The link below, shows some photos these british fighters in Luftwaffe’s color and markings:

http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com.br/2011/02/spitfires-capturados.html


Hope you enjoy and I count on your visit!

 

more here on our forum.

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/12518-wiki-aircraft/?hl=%2Bzirkus+%2Brosarius#entry158415

 

On THAT definition, Me262s flying with Ekdo 262 were not operational!

Now you can add the RAF definition.

 

I thought it obvious that what I was disagreeing with were the following parts:

Rather implying that your defintion is the only acceptable one, which it clearly is not.

As Phylo has mentioned by that definition you seem to be wrong. However I wasn't argueing for "seeing combat". Often the defintion used in these discussions is when it saw operational use in a squadron or close but not quite the same when the first squadron equiped with them was considered operational.

Snide comments especially when acompanied by questionable positions don't really do much to further your argument.

 

Yeah...I am sure a guy that is into WW2 aircraft would see it right away....but to the "casual observer".....I just thought it was a 109.

 

Another example of how this definition can be too simplistic is the Space Shuttle; noone could argue that it didn't ever fly....but it was never truly "operational", to allow the thing into the air at all the Shuttle was throughout its life listed for public liability as a "prototype aircraft" with the FAA!

 

I've read that the USAAF had some issues with P-51s being mistaken for 109s by bomber gunners when it was first introduced.

 

It was an issue with the B/C models. On 16 Apr 44, a 31st FG P-51 was shot down by a B-24 over Brasov, Romania. The next day, P-51's were sent to the various 15th AF bases so that the gunners could get a good look at it. The P-51 sent to Grottaglie was doing high speed passes over the field when part of the canopy departed and struck the tail. Howard Penson was killed when he could not pull up and crashed into the skeletal dirigible hanger at Grottaglie.

 

[member='pampa14'], I like your site, a lot - particularly being a plane knowlessman - but a few more captions would be great for us slightly clueless types
.

Struck me how 'American' the FW190/Butcher looks in US colours.

 

Here is an episode of 12 O'Clock High which had Gallagher's squadron shoot down a P-51 on their first escort mission

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734468/

I was ten years old when it was shown and can remember it as if I just watched it this afternoon,
Didn't realize it at the time but Warren Oats played the fighter squardon commander. Great episode, like most of them were

The tables may be turning in the air war in Europe. The P-51 has arrived, with the promise of providing escort to the B-17s all the way to the heart of Germany. The first 18 are assigned to Gallagher's 918th, but his gunners manage to accidentally shoot one down on the very first mission. This sets a very bad tone between Gallagher and the fighter commander, Col. Troper, who are thrown together to make the new system work. Troper, already an ace with 22 kills, chafes at the need to protect the bombers at the cost of being able to hunt down the Luftwaffe fighters, and his resentment builds to a dangerous and destructive intensity.