Panzer IV vs M4

Germany was dealing with copper shortages, and so stopped making power traverse engines for their tanks.

 

Many of the German losses were from running out of gas. Pieper himself walked back to Germany.

 

The IS-2's gun is def not something that KT crews worried about. Kurt Knispel's Tiger II recorded 28 hits in operations around Budapest, 13 of them of around the 120 MM variety and his tank continued on for another 2 weeks recieving little repair before he was killed. The IS-2's main gun (120 mm) was designed to clear the streets of German cities. The IS-2 was not designed to fight against German Tigers. It was an infantry tank designed to take German cities. That is evident by the fact that it used HE 2 peice ammunition, and its armor was not designed to protect it from the 8.8 cm guns on the tigers. Its armor was built to protect if from the Pak 40 and Panzershrecks. The KV-2 upgrades were the response to the Tiger, not the IS-2.

 

Karl Korner did have 40 tank kills in one engagement with Russian tanks in Berlin. 8 of them were IS-2s. The 505 with Knispel which consisted of 45 KT's alone fought back the 7th guard and 3rd army. The 7th guard was equipped with 88 IS-2s. The losses are disputed the Germans claiming 68, the russians claiming 63. Either way, the only thing that truly, posed a threat to the KT was the IL-2 Sturmovik, P-47, or Hawker Typhoon. Due to the lack of numbers of a KT no allied or comintern nation saw it necessary to mass produce a tank to counter the KT when the allies had overwhelming air superiority.

 

I would choose Sherman Jumbo if I can choose any version I want, with a good crew and commander it is a very deadly tank.
But if we talk earlier versions: Panzer IV easily. But as someone else said earlier: It is more limited and cant be as much upgunned and uparmoured as the Sherman can.

 

Yes of course it did. The Tiger was sooo powerful it shrugged off 13 x 122mm hits..................

You might want to check the '28 hits' claim. The best I can find in an October 22 1944 mention of the Tiger of a Lt Furlinger being hit 24 times and the comment it was a 'miracle' it could still move.
Knipsel was in sPzAbt 503 by the way and this unit did not fight 'alone' anywhere. It seems to be a widely held belief that as soon as a Tiger turns up on the battlefield every other Germans tank/soldier stops fighting and they have a kip until the Tigers destroy whole Allied Armies in under 10 minutes!
Knipsel was killed 28th April 1945 and 2 weeks before this is April 14th but I see nothing in the 503 History that mentions 13 122mm hits being survived. Indeed the many accounts mention lots of Tigers being penetrated and knocked out so one wonders why the super-tank with 13 x 122mm failures is not documented.

What was the Jagdtiger ammo like?
There was 122mm AP ammo as well.

The front of an IS II was able to withstand Tiger I hits.

I believe you.
SS 503 (Berlin) had around a dozen TII (not 45)
1/2/3 GTA wrote off 22 ISII in the Berlin Battles and you say Korner got 8?
Did all the IS-2 line up and seek out the his Tiger II's so they could engage in single combat?

The Soviet Tank Armies at Berlin
1st GTA
2nd GTA
3rd GTA
In total they wrote off 645 tanks and you say that of all the A/T weapons in Berlin a dozen TII were the main killers?
Some people believe anything!

 

The 28 hits claim was recorded by Georg Diers commander of Tank 314 of the 503rd after engagements around budapest in November of 1944 and yes your are right it is the 503rd and yes it was a miracle the tank was still operational after so many hits. It was so miraculous that Diers felt the need to record it. sorry some peopel have typos from time to time. And according to what it says in his book "28 impacts..... 13 of the 120 mm variety....5 low caliber from 37mm to 50mm.... 2 large caliber guessing of the 152mm pushka..... 8 common impacts of the 75 mm variety."

 

As for the 503rd fighting alone. I never said this. That is your logic. The 503rd was in combined opertaions with the 60 PanzerGrenadier at this time.

 

Regarding the effectiveness of the main armament of the IS-2 "Soviet proving-ground tests established that the A-19 could penetrate the front armour of the German Panther tank,[SUP][3][/SUP] and it was therefore considered adequate in the anti-tank role. German Army data on the penetration ranges of the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective when the Panther stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m"
Now if the gun of the IS-2 cant penetrate the glacis plate at any range, and the front plate at only 100 m. Then what do you expect it to do against the King Tiger?

 

Regarding the IS-2's ability to withstand a shot from the Tiger II 8.8cm L71. The frontal armor of the IS-2 is 160mm. The KT's main gun only fell below 160mm of armor penetration ability at ranges beyond 1000 meters. Anything closer than 1000 meters could penetrate 185mm- 202mm of armor at an 85%-100% rate.

 

Furthermore the 503rd had 3 companys each of 14 KT's. and a command company of 3 KT's and 6 sdkfz 250's. In the battle of Berlin Korner commanded the 2nd company and only 4 of his 14 KT's were operational on the day he claimed his kills. The date being April 4th 1945. He claimed 40 kills.

 

Lastly the 7th Guard and 3rd Army were not fighting in Berlin in my post. It was at Budapest and there were plenty of IS-2's here.

 

Your use of terms is so loose it is difficult to work out exactly what you are saying but here goes:

The 505 with Knispel which consisted of 45 KT's alone

Now as you got Knipsel's Unit wrong I assume you are also unable to tell the difference betweeen sSS Pz Abt 503 and sPzAbt 503.

You mean at Budapest sPzAbt 503 fought all them there Ruskies with the help of a single Pz Grenadier Unit?

Plenty?
Exactly how many?
Do you know how many IS units were allocated per front (obviously not!)

History of sPzAbt 503

Page 291
Bornschier's tank penetrated through the side of the hull....

page 293.
8 December
8 Tiger II's damaged in action and at a repair depot blown up when the retreat started.
That is 8 TII knocked out by what exactly?


10-17 Dec
2 Tigers knocked out by direct hits.

page 294

5 Tigers suffered significant damage from gunfire.

23 December
Tiger 133 knocked out by AT fire

page 295
Gartner had a round penetrate the side of his tank

page 296.
9 January 1945
the first tank (Tiger II)went up in flames..........half an hour later .the same thing happened to a second tank....about another half hout later the third tank was knocked out.......I figured my tank would be next..........and there was an explosion in my tank...we had been penetrated...a large chunk of armoutrhad been blown away.... [I make that 4 TII knocked out]

page 297

11 Jan
13 Tigers operational on morning........by evening only 3 in service.....2 total losses..... The remaining tanks, (8) some had suffered serious hits, were recovered.(page 314 account written by a survivor says 3 were total losses

18 Jan
One after another 4 Tigers were put out of action....the commanders tank also took a direct hit that prevented the main gun from firing.....

22 Jan
9 Tigers...by nightfall half had become disabled by gunfire........

page 298
25 Jan
2 Tigers disabled by gunfire and mines......


26 Jan
3 Tigers.....disabled by stronger and stronger tank and anti-tank fire......

31 Jan

One Konigstiger hit by a round that penetrated the turret.......

Another Tiger fires at 20 Russian tanks...hits one...other Russian tanks fire back and the tiger recieves numerous hits that made it unfit for combat and incapable of moving....

page 299

17 Feb
Tiger 'I' set on fire by a direct hit......(page 319 has an account from another Tiger that had its turret penetrated that day)

That is just a quick skim. A more detailed reading will give you much more and I missed out the huge number of TII's knocked out by mines as well.

So it seems the Russians were well able to knock these montsters out. As fast as they were patched up Ivan put more holes in them!

 

err............do you mean sSS PzAbt 503? Please use the correct term so we know which '503' you are talking about,

Status reports for sSS 503 (Korner's unit )give a total of 28 Tiger by 7/3/45. This is from a starting total of 39 in January 1945 (they never had 45) losses throughout April-May were substantial and the only fixed number is 12 TII on April 18th
Bottom line is your claim of 45 Tiger II in Berlin in late April/May is bunkum.
It is of note that Wilbeck (from his book a devoted Tiger tank fan ) singles out sSS PzAbt 503 (Korner) as the most 'suspicious' unit in relation to kill claims.


This from his online book page 127 http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a415948.pdf :

Notes: S.SS.Pz.-Abt. 503’s claims lack credibility. This battalion was never fully
equipped and only fought from January 1945 until the end of the war. Committed to the
Eastern Theater, it was split apart to many different areas under many different
commands. Its records are incomplete and cannot be verified. This battalion fought in
places like Kustrin, the Seelow Heights and in Berlin in addition to many others. Jean
Restayn claimed that two Tiger IIs destroyed 64 JS-IIs and T-34s in a brief engagement
toward the end of the war but it is doubtful that in a little over three months of combat the
battalion destroyed more than 500 Soviet tanks.

By the time he got this into a printed book he changed the wording slightly so as not to be too harsh on the Unit.
S.SS.Pz.-Abt. 503’s claims lack credibility became of all the unit's claims SS Heavy Tank Battalion 503 is the most difficult to verify

 

Diers was in sSSPzAbt 503 and they were not in Budapest in 1944.
If you have a book then you should reference it. It would save me a lot of trouble checking up on you because you simply do not have a clue about the correct unit names.

 

Extract from an original report written by Major Gomille, commander of the III.(Tiger) Abteilung/Panzer Regiment (Panzer-Division Grossdeutschland):

"...Hauptmann von Villerbois, commander of the 10.Kompanie, was severely wounded during this action. His Tiger was hit eight times by 12.2 cm shells from the assault guns on T-34 chassis. One hit penetrated the hull side. The turret was hit six times, three of which resulted only in small dents, while two hits caused fractures and small pieces to break off. The six hit broke out a large piece (about two hand widths) from the turret armor that flew into the fighting compartment. The entire electrical firing circuit for the main gun was knocked out by the hits and several vision blocks were destroyed or broke out of the weak holders. The weld seam on the hull was sprung open for about 50 cm from the location of the penetration, so that it wasn't possible for the Werkstatt-Kompanie (maintenance company - Valera) to repair it"


Appears to be HE only but you get the idea what 122mm hits can do. Essentialy the Tiger was scrap and you think 13 hits can be shrugged off and the Tiger II motored on for a further 14 days without needing any repairs?

 

I know the difference between the 2 regiments Kenny. And i dont doubt any of the quotes you just posted. I dont doubt that a gun can not penetrate the Tiger armor. I doubted your claim that a 2 KT were not capable of taking on 12 IS-2's. As the KT was more than capable of handling the latter. The name of Diers work was called "Die nach dem Krieg" I believe that is the correct spelling. I know in English it meant afterwar. It isnt a book. Its a collection of memoirs from several German soldiers that fought on the eastern front. And for your confusion regarding the 503's. The SS fought in Berlin. Diers and Korner were a part of this as you say. However Diers was also temporarily detached to the 503 at Budapest. During the time they were charged with breaking the en cirlement at budapest. This failed and the 503 continued on with the 60 panzergrenadier fighting against the 7th guard and 3rd army. (yes i know others were involved but these were the primary forces engaged in all of the engagements). Diers insteasd was transferred back to Berlin instead of continuing with the 503. Here to help your confusion for now on i will say SS 503 and just 503 for the other. Now that is of course from what Diers wrote and it was him not Knispel who took into account 28 hits of Knnispels tank, in that he considered a miracle that Knispel and his crew were not lying in pieces on the battlefield.

 

Now for the issue at Berlin where you doubted that "the uber boys could handle 12 Is-2's with only 2 KT's"
Here is what the records say. Summary of Actions " At the end of April the units strength was 6 Tiger 2s from sSSPzAbt503 were attached to the 11th Waffen SS Panzergrenadier Nordland and by April 30th only 2 of the Konigstigers remained. Georg Diers Tiger and the other of Karl Korner whose kill total was over100 Russian tanks and 29 field pieces. Georg Diers states that on May 1st they successfully counter attacked and temporarily re captured the Kroll Opera House but withdrew at 7pm. Georg Diers is credited with a total of 39 Russian tanks destroyed, plus many others during the last days in the defence of Berlin. During the Russian attacks he was faced with a large number of Russian tanks and Russian infantry had entered and were fighting within the Reichstag. So Georg Diers crew destroyed their Tiger 2 with mines near the Schonhause Alley."

 

were not done yet. "DP0134P. Night Fight, Bollersdorf, East of Berlin, 19th April 1945
Following a full day of combat Hauptscharfurher Korner of SS Heavy Tank Battalion 503 foiled a night attack by a battalion of Josef Stalin JSII heavy tanks. Korner reports 12 heavy tanks were either destroyed or immobilized. By the end of the day he had accounted for 76 enemy tanks, over 40 of these on this one day alone. It was his 25th birthday."

 

What the 'records' say?
You have not provided recorde merely quotes from a book.
I note yet again you failed to source all your quotes for kill claims.
Can you please provide a checkable reference and not Achtung Panzer!