Signed German Photos

I am thinking Werner Schroer for these reasons;

1. ratio of number of sorties to number of victories, he flew only
197 sorties and achieved 114 victories, this is more than one
victory for every two sorties
2. 102 of his victories were on the Western Front against much
better trained and equiped pilots than the eastern front, 61
were in North Africa.
3. He also had 26 four engine bomber victories making him tied
in 6th place for number of daytime bomber victories.

Heavy Bombers were not easy considering their armament and
the fighter escorts which could be upwards of 200 to 300;
Mustangs, P38s and Thunderbolts. Attacking a 600+formation
heavy bombers being protected by 200+ Mustangs, P38s and
Thunderbolts has got to be an extremely difficult thing to do.
Not to mention how hard it is to bring down a flying fortress
even if you weren't being attacked by hundreds of fighters in
the process.

I also think that Kurt "Bu-mann" Buhligen is in my top 3
1. 112 victories on the Western front
2. 24 heavy bombers, 47+ Spitfires, 13+ P38s and 9+ P47s
this is quite a wide range of victories over various types of
aircraft over Africa and the western front

Willi Batz would be my top Eastern front Pilot
1. He flew 445 sorties to achieve 237 victories. He did not start
flying in combat until Feb. of 1943. Up until that time he
had been a flight instructer.
2. On May 31st. 1944 he downed 15 enemy aircraft
3. He also shot down 46 "cementers" IL-2 Sturmoviks

Erich Hartmann is not in my top 3 because he only fought on the eastern front and did not have any experiences against the western front pilots or types of aircraft. His score of 352 is also disputed based on the lack of quality confirmation for a lot of his victories and recent Russian records that have been discovered. He flew over 850 sorties to achieve his 352 victories (the russians refute this claim based on recent research of their records of lost aircraft at the time) and Hartmann's victories were all on the Eastern front where it has been said the Russian pilots were not trained or as experienced as much as the British and US pilots were. This is certainly not to insinuate that all Russian pilots were rookies, many Luftwaffe pilots have said that there were Russian pilots that left them sweating and shaking after a dogfight and were top notch opponents.

Hans-Joachim Marsielle would definitely be near the top of my list had he survived the war, He scored 158 victories in a very short time in North Africa against British pilots (disputed). Here is a description of him from "Mackey" Steinhoff.
His mother and father divorced when Marseille was young, and his doting mother often failed to control him or discipline him for mischief or bad behavior. This upbringing resulted in his many conflicts with authority and his reputation as a rebel. This would continue during his brief Luftwaffe career. On November 7th 1939 he joined the Luftwaffe during the rush to prepare for war. His early efforts were undistinguished. Although he shot down 7 aircraft during Battle of Britain, he himself fell victim to enemy fighters on four occasions. Johannes Steinhoff had him transferred out of 4/JG52 for insubordination. Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff (176 victories) remembered: "Marseille was remarkably handsome. He was gifted pilot and fighter, but he was unreliable. He had girlfriends everywhere, who took up so much of his time that he was often too tired to be allowed to fly. His often irresponsible understanding of duty was the primary reason I sent him packing. But he had irresistible charm",

Marseille was transferred to JG27 where his talents began to be recognized. It was noticed that he possessed superb acrobatic flying skills, excellent eyesight and an acute sense of tactics. However, Marseille on the ground often displayed boyish behavior; he was a great joker and was always ready for mischief. He wore his hair long and listened to jazz and swing music earning disapproval among the Nazi hardliners.

Marsielle's greatest accomplishment would be the following account.
On September 1st 1942 Marseille downed 17 allied planes in three sorties. On his second sortie of the three, he managed to shoot down eight aircraft in an astonishing ten minutes!
Had Marsielles survived to fight until the end of the war he probably would be near the top pilot on my list.

My choices are based on ratio of sorties to amount of victories. The Aces opponents, basically Western or Eastern front, where I consider the Western front to be the more difficult area to achieve victories.
Also the types of aircraft and pilots that the Ace fought against and the length of time that he was engaged in combat, From the French campaign to the end of the war would score higher than say from 1943 or 44 until the end of the war. In other word survivability based on years in combat.

I definitely think Galland and even Ihlefeld would be in the top because they had been in combat since the spanish civil war and had fought on various fronts with various aircraft against all types of opponents.

 

Sorry, this is a bit OT but as i read Steinhoff´s name i remembered that my Dad has driven his car during his time in the Bundeswehr.

Regards

Ulrich

 

actually Witt came on the scene late with the SM installation preferring to use forward firing guns in his Ju 88C's. II./NJG 5 and Rudi Schönert got the ball rolling in summer of 43 with the SM in their Bf 110G-4's and then it just spread like wildfire.

really not sure if I have a fav for day/night ace really. maybe my cous H. Baer for day fighters who has to be one of the best considering the missions flown and the a/c types used, balls to thew all he defied logic, surprising that he was not brought up on mutiny charges and shot before his leadership in JG 1. maybe Rökker or Raht for nf's though I can think of a host that flew terrible missions in 45 with all odds against them and still scored when most probability they should of been a lonely name with a + behind it.

Marseille we are finding did not score 150 but far less, some of his kills cannot be proven and at least 100-150 of Hartmann's kills the same way. Of course this is the case we are finding about Herr Rüdel which I have alsways thought that 500 Soviet tanks was bogus number from the very start, more in the range of possibly 200 more-so even less than that..................somehow we get this misunderstanding that having the highest ranked score whether myth or no makes one the best, and that is hardly the case when one considers theater of war, the odds, the fighter/bomber/recon crate flown and a host of variables.

by the way Wolf Falck was a joy to interview, very helpful in contacting surviving Nachtjäger years ago.

of course I could go on and on about the LW day fighter Sturmgruppen pilots: very much Kick-A** units, getting within 50 feet to knock down an Allied bomber.............insane

 

According to historian Dmitri Khazanov the majority of Hartmann's victories are not supported by any corresponding evidence in the Soviet archives. Hartmann would often claim three or even five Soviet a/c shot down on a sortie. His chief 'tactic' involved catching lone Soviet aircraft unawares far behind the front lines, with only a wing man's statement to support his claim. This goes someway to explaining the disparity with Soviet records Khazanov concludes "Hartmann's actual successes probably amounted to no more than 70 to 80 Soviet aircraft shot down..."

The figure probably started with Toliver's 'Blond Knight..', a book that was written and researched at the height of the Cold War. It offered little research, nothing from Russian archives and no bibliography, which probably explains why it was little short of hagiographic idolatry. Since the the late 1960s some researchers have looked a little more critically at Hartmann's record and a recent article by Russian researcher Dmitri Khazanov went much further. In fact German archives are themselves contradictory. Indeed only 289 of Hartmann's 'victories' were in fact 'officially confirmed' before the German claims sytem broke down in early 1945. Only 307 of his supposed claims had even been 'officially' filed before the end of the war..

Even the pilots who worked with Hartmann when he was new to the eastern front like, Rossman, Grislawski and others thought he was sure to be shot down before he could achieve any success.

well the actual number may never be known but I personally doubt his claim of 352 just based on the higher quality of his comrades who had much more experience than him having scored less and they were in combat much longer than he was. I think he was used by the propaganda machine to help boost moral in Germany during the last years of the war and his actual number of victories is a lot lower than the 352 claimed.

 

Rall was superior to Bubi in every way. my opinion had Bubi been trasfered over to the west front he would of met his doom as most aces. there are severl known Russian sources-authors that have doubted Hartm. claims but so have German research historians long before the Russian ones.

Rüdel was such a party clown that he whole score was beefed up in pride for the German people they needed another boy in Gold to build them up so they thought, at least the Nazi propaganda machine did. the same was the case for NF ace Kurt Welter, he could do no wrong in the air when the LSNF Mossies were in the air near Berlin he was given credit for shooting down 1 or more even if he did not fly on that particular night.

 

I have read that Welter's mosquito claims were BS and that his fellow night fighter pilots resented him and his fake claims of mosquito kills. Goring hated the mosquitos and Welter knew of this so he used it to his advantage to promote himself

 

no entirely

two of us are writing the book on Kommando Welter right now giving the true conclusions of the very illusive man, he was a noted flying personality very much at home in a single seat fighter at night. but he was also a propaganda tool like Rüdel, Welter rose to fame because of his beconings with the Fat man.

what has been proven on at least 5-6 ops the claims for Mossie's should of gone to other pilots not to Welter himself. Sadly much of the strange secretive history behind this jet unit has been lost in the flames of war in spring of 45 onward to Berlin.

 

yah I also think if "Bubi" was transfered to the West he would not have lasted a week,
I have read a lot of other pilots thought Rudel was an egotistical jerk and have never read of any of his comrades having great things to say about him.
I think his story of landing to save his comrades and being captured by the russians and then escaping is total nonsense and I don't believe any of it. Besides it also shows how self centered he was to not have any concern for his rear gunner or the other pilot and gunner while trying to save his own arse.

I think both Hartmann and Rudel were just propaganda favorites and did not rock the boat by voicing the reality of what was going on like your cousin Baer, or any of the officers of the late war anti Goring Rebellion By Galland and the other officers.

 

Rüdel was a excellent pilot/tactician and knew how to use ground attack tactics of the time the best most probably of any field Offizier of any military machine in the war. his score was inflated for reasons we have mentioned, he was a party fav. he was also looked upon with some kingly estate in StG 2. if any man could smell Soviet armor in the distance he could. My subject of reason behidn his ludicrous score is such the margin he had to the second highest tank killer in the Panzerstaffeln. wouldn't one feel there is something wrong in the overall LW ground attack records when one pilot/crew has 500 plus tanks to their credit and then compare # 2 at around 150 ? it makes no legitable sense.

 

Erich this is a little off topic but I would be interested in your suggestions for reading material and books that you have found helpful and interesting. I am a prolific reader and though I prefer first hand accounts and personal narratives any thing that will help build my knowledge base and understanding is appreciated
thank in advance.
Lacy

 

nice shot of jabs showing his special NF black wreathed flying clasp and pendant though that in part can be attributed to his time in the day ZG's before him gaining noterity in NJG 1

Lacy the question is for books and sources materials what are your specific interests. don't think you want a generalized volume(s) am I correct ?

though very expensive one can muster funds to purchase the translated German works by Struve Druck Verlag now in the hands of Schiffer publications on the day fighter units, many to choose from, though photo copying has turned out somewhat dark. from this then one can analize and cross check possible US/British records, as this is what I have done for years. volumes as examples include :

JG 1/11, JG 3, JG 27, JG 53, JG 77, etc. Eric Mombeek produced two volumes on JG 4 just recently translated from the French/German into English. He is also working on JG 5. One might want to consider the craft/personalities of some of the Classic Publications such as the Hs 129 volume, or JV 44. somewhere in thef uture a huge Ju 87 Stuka volume(s) will be released.

 

thanks Erich, I did take 8 semesters of German Language in college over 15 years ago but unfortunatley have lost a lot from lack of use. I used to read German much better than I could speak and listen to it but since the type of vocabulary used in these types of books would not be familiar to me it would be difficult as I would have to try to read with a German dictionary to look up so many terms it would just give me a headache. I should try to improve my german language reading so that I could read the books published in german as they are far more numerous than the translated editions

 

an idea. go to the 12 o'clock high discussion board, once there mid-way down is books, open that link up and go crazy you will find the latest on air-aviation books from all theaters.

 

very nice Lacy and rare pic plus sig of the NJG 2 crew. congrats.

 

last pic are NJG 3 110G-4's