The Battle for Caen

MOST OF THIS SOUNDS REASONABLE- THE GERMAN UNITS AT CAEN WERE SOME TOUGH HOMBRES

caps aff

 

Good work, and you are correct about what was expected in the ratios. If I remember correctly the Allied command estimated a casualty rate of 60%?

I really enjoy good research.

 

No Caen was not a Brit D-Day objective, sorry but that article is incorrect. Over the years I was able to talk to officers that were part of the planning and the officers that were given their D-Day objectives. None and I repeat none of the landing plans wnet as far as Caen being a landing objective. The expected casualty rates by the planners of D-Day is a simple piece of evidence of this fact.

Do the math, do you really think that any Brit, or Canadian unit could withstand such high casualties and make it to Caen and keep it? Um, er, ah, NOT.

Get a calculator, no seriously, and look at any map of the terrain, take into consideration what resources the Germans could throw against the invasion forces, that the Germans knew how important that city was to the entire region and I am quie confident that reason will prevail. Also take into consideration that Monty was the best Allied commander, in Normandy, for static defences that were devised and perfected to stop Rommel.

 

A better army, absolutely not. Tired and very cautous of casualties and nowhere the ability to replace man as the Americans is more like it. Patton was so very good at tank warfare, the Brits were so very good at static warfare. BOB, BNA, BFI I use as my historical examples and the fact that both Canada and the UK had been at war for five years, and the Americans only three years. Casualty attrition had definitely added up by the time of the battle for Normandy.

By the way I have seen exact copies of official D-Day objective maps and non showed the city of Caen as an objective, but, one could say I guess it was if you included just the bridges which defintely were landing objectives.

 

So why do the books mention it? Why did the allied forces press towards it and reached it's outskirts?

The main one I can think off is D-Day : the first 72 hours by Buckingham

I agree that British and Candian manpower was maxed out. Monty was told that fresh recruits would be limited. I don't know if that affected his planning but it does seem to tie in with poorly planned armoured thrusts where a heavy infantry and combined armoured support would be more advised. The leading elements of the Brits and Canadians were also war tired. They had led the way through Africa and then italy and felt peeved that they had to do it again.

Still not convinced about Caen not being a day zero objective. Can you show any reasonable sources online or direct to any books to support this theory?

I have found this http://www.britannica.com/dday/article-9400220 which is supposed to be a copy of the final attack plan.

FNG

 

AFAIK the Germans concentrated tanks on the East flank mainly because the American sector, the hedgerow country was basically unsuited for armor. It wasn't until the Americans innovated the Rhino tanks with the ability to penetrate the hedgerows that it was opened up to armor.


Virtually every other source besides this revisionist, rehabilitation of Monty"s image piece acknowledge that Caen (and Bayeux) were first day objectives.

Here's another source from the Canadian's history of D-day:

I would like to know this; If Caen/Bayeux weren't the first day objectives then what were the objectives? One does not commit such forces to battle without a firmly established plan, especially when it has been planned for months ahead of time.

 

"The British Second Army attacked on a twenty-four mile front. On the right, XXX Corps (Lieutenant-General Bucknall) was directed on Bayeux, eight miles inland. On the left, I Corps (Lieutenant-General Crocker) was directed on Caen."

-David Fraser, "And We Shall Shock Them, the British Army in the Second World War"

 

It wasn't one article MP, it is the mass of evidience, including Monty's own briefings, that make it clear Caen was an early, if not D-Day objective. Throw away your calculator and check the maps showing the D-Day objective lines. The intention was to get to Caen before the Germans could throw in their resources and avoid the high casualities.

 

re

caen, was a firsdt day objective but it was more a case of hoping to take it rather than expecting it to be taken.

The germansd massed there armour against the british and canadians to hold caen, above all else including hedge rows.
i say this for 2 reasons. there were plaenty of hedgerows in british and canadian area,s.
and 2 even after the break out the majority of german armour remained positioned against the british and the canadians.
all in all over the normandy campaign about 80% of german tanks were placed against commonwealth forces.

 

Erm, hedgerows? Have you been to Caen?

All the books I have read about the troops and area suggest open fields and rolling hills.

the Hedgerows that the Normandy campaign is famed for were as far as I know in the US sector to the South

FNG

 

no not caen. in the british sectors. well according to the osprey d-day books. some british areas did have hedgrerows. but your right not in caen.
It list one advantage of the churchill tank as being a good tank for hedgerow battles, superior in this type of combat to all other allied tanks.

 

Is that because it had heavier armour, and speed was less of an issue?

 

partly yes. but also its engine whilst only 350 bhp created alot of torque. it was created for driving through trench's. Its suspension was set as such, so the hedgrerows didnt present much of a problem for it. but yes it also helped it had 152mm frontal armour and 95mm side armour. as british test plate was in line with german quality it was actualy about as tough to the sides as the sherman was frontaly.
And the l48 75mm of the mark 4 was useless against its front or turret.

 

Re: re

I can agree to this point of hoping rather than expecting to take such a vital logistics centre of communication and supply. The fact the Allies knew of its vitality I have no doubt the Germans knew as well; therefore the concentration of the German armour. "Caen The Anvil of Victory" is an excellent read, I suggest anyone that wants to increase their understanding of the Normandy Campaigns to read this book.

The Mutant Poodle