The myths of WWII (Eastern Europe)

Oh yeah and btw LJAD. The French campaign lasted from 10 May-22 June (6 weeks). The germans in this whole campaign lost 27,074-49,000 depending on your source. That is nowhere near 25,000 men a week which would add to be 150k. Unless you are counting the 111k wounded soldiers which does not count as a kill, unfortunately for you. Wounded soldiers can return to combat, and the higher 49k number i mentioned tends to refer to the wounded plus the dead that were lost in most sources. 27,074 being the total lost in combat the 49,000 being a rough estimate of the combat losses plus the wounded that either succumbed or could not return to duty. Also known as non-combat losses.

 

I did mention :losses or casualties :These were 150000:
27000 KIA
18000 MIA (most of them dead,a few POW)
110000 WIA
This without the losses of the LW and KM.
To count only dead is senseless;the point is that in Fall Gelb +Fall Rot (may -june 1940),the Germans lost 25000 men a week,while during Barbarossa (22 june-31 august),they lost :404000 men(without losses of the LW):83000 KIA,18000 MIA (most dead)303000 WIA=40000 a week .The German average losses were higher in Barbarossa .
Btw :non combatlosses are :sick,losses to accidents;men that succombed later or could not return to their duty, are COMBATLOSSES.

 

Unless you can prove that Krupp was owned by the state,that the agriculture consisted by sovchozes and colchozes,that the shops,pubs,etc were owned by the state,that private property as such did not exist,I should say that the German economy was a capitalist one.

 

I think Hugo Junkers would have given a different opinion, had he been asked.

 

Another myth: for a long time, it was standard procedure for Russian infantry to ALWAYS have thier bayonets fixed when in a massed attack. In the beginning scene from "Enemy At the Gates," almost nobody has a bayonet fixed.

Also, they had plenty of rifles at Stalingrad. I remember listening to an interview with a survivor of Pavlov's House who claimed that almost every soldier crossing the river (again, similar to the EatG scene) was armed with a submachine gun (or Абтомать, as he put it).

 

If, in a discussion about the war in the east in 1941(!),some one (=Jager) is writing the following:
3)"The Russians received most of their CJ's and military goods from the US in the east and transported west through LL",than is is obvious that he means that this happened in 1941
4)"Capturing Moscow would split the Russian Armies in the north and the south, allowing the Germans to force the Russians to either risk running out of Material.....",than is it obvious that he means that the fall of Moscow would mean no more materials, because no more LL.
"When the US were extending LL to Russia in 1941,T34 production number multiplied greatly because Stalin could use more IC to produce them",than is it obvious that he means that the T34 production in 1941, was depending from LL.
3 +4 are proving that the POV of Jager is
that the US were rescuing the SU in 1941,via LL.
I only want to add that after a lot of posts,Jager has not given any proofs for his claims,and that I am no more willing to discuss this .
Source:see post 132.

 

I know what happened to Junkers,but, IMHO,that's proving that Germany was a dictatorship,not that it wasn't a capitalist economy .

 

I have not got a copy but I think this would help

The Soviet economy and the Red Army ... - Walter Scott Dunn - Google Books


It says the Germans estimated the Soviets had 25,000 locos, 500,000 2 axle cars and 225,000 4 axle.
The Germans say they captured 1338 locos and 82,000 cars by 1943

This article was written in 1935.

RUSSIA AND SIBERIA

 

A question was asked about the Soviet rail system. There was an extensive discussion of it on one of these boards a year or two ago that went into some detail on both the prewar and wartime locomotives and stock including size and hauling capacity of the engines. I beleive it was either here or on the axis history forum.

As for LL being critical in 41. IMO that takes a very loose defintion of critical and even then is an up hill battle to prove. If it was critical it was British LL to the Soviets that made the difference rather than US LL. Now if the topic centers around when or if the Soviets make it to Berlin that's a different matter.

 

I should not use "Enemy at the gates" to prove something,what not means that the theory of the fixed bayonets has any truth.

 

Axis History Forum • View topic - Impact of Lend-Lease on Soviet railways

 

3) Your quote did not mention 1941. Therefore how does it mean it happened in 1941? 4) You failed to mention the part where I said capturing moscow would cause parts of LL to be delayed or lost. Meaning some of the material would not reach the west and other materials would take longer to reach the west. Simply making it a factor (not the only or biggest factor I mentioned) that increases strategic importance of securing moscow. And your last statement no it was an example and the point is that if you only have so much IC, and you have to make the materials instead of receiving them then that cuts into IC. The soviets would have to give up production of something else in order to produce the materials it received. If you dont understand take an economics class and make sure you pay attention to the Opportunity Cost lesson. Oh yeah and my first post was followed by 3 seperate links with 3 different sources. All of which you regretably refuse to accept.

 

Regarding Nazi Economic Policy. It was not Capitalist so your are def in a fantasy world. Nazis were extremely opposed to Communism and Capitalism. BTW nazism is actually national socialism. Really simplified, people were free to do business as long as it contributed to the state. here is the support. "
Hitler, both in public and in private, expressed strong disdain for capitalism, accusing modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.[SUP][152][/SUP] He opposed free-market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy in which community interests would be upheld.[SUP][144][/SUP] He distrusted capitalism for being unreliable, due to its egotistic nature, and he preferred a state-directed economy that is subordinated to the interests of the Volk.[SUP][153][/SUP] Hitler told a party leader in 1934, "The economic system of our day is the creation of the Jews."[SUP][153][/SUP] Hitler said to Benito Mussolini that "Capitalism had run its course".[SUP][153][/SUP] Hitler also said that that business bourgeoisie "know nothing except their profit. 'Fatherland' is only a word for them."[SUP][154][/SUP] Hitler admired Napoleon as a role model for his anti-conservative, anti-capitalist and anti-bourgeois attitudes.[SUP][155][/SUP]
In Mein Kampf, Hitler effectively supported mercantilism, in the belief that economic resources from their respective territories should be seized by force; he believed that the policy of lebensraum would provide Germany with such economically valuable territories.[SUP][156][/SUP] He believed that the only means to maintain economic security was to have direct control over resources rather than being forced to rely on world trade.[SUP][157][/SUP] He claimed that war to gain such resources was the only means to surpass the failing capitalist economic system.[SUP][156][/SUP]
In 1927, Hitler said:

We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.[SUP][158]"


[/SUP]​

 

Regarding Nazi Economic Policy. It was not Capitalist so your are def in a fantasy world. Nazis were extremely opposed to Communism and Capitalism. BTW nazism is actually national socialism. Really simplified, people were free to do business as long as it contributed to the state. here is the support. "
Hitler, both in public and in private, expressed strong disdain for capitalism, accusing modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.[SUP][152][/SUP] He opposed free-market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy in which community interests would be upheld.[SUP][144][/SUP] He distrusted capitalism for being unreliable, due to its egotistic nature, and he preferred a state-directed economy that is subordinated to the interests of the Volk.[SUP][153][/SUP] Hitler told a party leader in 1934, "The economic system of our day is the creation of the Jews."[SUP][153][/SUP] Hitler said to Benito Mussolini that "Capitalism had run its course".[SUP][153][/SUP] Hitler also said that that business bourgeoisie "know nothing except their profit. 'Fatherland' is only a word for them."[SUP][154][/SUP] Hitler admired Napoleon as a role model for his anti-conservative, anti-capitalist and anti-bourgeois attitudes.[SUP][155][/SUP]
In Mein Kampf, Hitler effectively supported mercantilism, in the belief that economic resources from their respective territories should be seized by force; he believed that the policy of lebensraum would provide Germany with such economically valuable territories.[SUP][156][/SUP] He believed that the only means to maintain economic security was to have direct control over resources rather than being forced to rely on world trade.[SUP][157][/SUP] He claimed that war to gain such resources was the only means to surpass the failing capitalist economic system.[SUP][156][/SUP]
In 1927, Hitler said:

We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.[SUP][158]"


[/SUP]​

 

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Gosh because I just never show sources.

 

My post was more to prove Enemy at the gates wrong than anything else. It's a good movie but it's so inaccurate in almost every regard.

 

So there you have it.
Hitler was one of them there commies after all...............oh and black is white because I say so!

 

Of course, if one is (as usual) not reading his own links, where one can read the following:
"INITIALLY nazi political strategy focused on anti big-busines, anti bourgeois, and anti capitalist RHETORIC (you know:what politicians are using to win votes),though such aspects were later downplayed in the 1930's,to gain support from industrial owners,..
And, if one is not aware of what happened to people(you know,no, you don't know, :Strasser) who took seriously the initial party program with its lot of anti capitalist rhetoric,and,if one thinks that capitalism and mercantilism are excluding each other
one is free to claim that Nazi Economic Policy is not capitalist.

 

I forgot:maybe we can claim that the economic policy of Japan is not a capitalist one, because, there is a lot of Mercantilism in Japan,and, following the Jager doctrine, mercantilism and capitalism are excluding each other .

 

its easy definition of capitalism- "
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market" Key things that set capitalism apart form nazi economic policy. "investments that are determined by private decision, prices, production, and distribution that are determined by the free market" well going back to my original link - "Private property rights were conditional upon the economic mode of use; if it did not advance Nazi economic goals, the state could nationalize it.[SUP][168][/SUP] Nazi government corporate takeovers, and threatened takeovers, encouraged compliance with government production plans, even if unprofitable for the firm. For example, the owner of the Junkers aeroplane factory refused the government’s directives, whereupon the Nazis occupied the factory and arrested Hugo Junkers, but paid him for his nationalized business. Although the Nazis privatised public properties and public services, they also increased economic state control.[SUP][169][/SUP] Under Nazi economics, free competition and self-regulating markets diminished; nevertheless, Adolf Hitler’s social Darwinist beliefs made him reluctant to entirely disregard business competition and private property as economic engines.[SUP][170][/SUP][171" Now the core of capitalism is the right of private ownership un controlled by the state. How does Germany have a free enterprise system if they seized any business that ran for personal profit other than for the benefit of the state. Its called national socialism sir. thats what nazism was. to give people as much freedom as possible as long as their freedoms benefit the state. in other words its between communism and capitalism incorporating elements of both while leaving elements of both out.