The 'ordinary' soldiers of the Wehrmacht

Triple C · May 29, 2009

Well, I think as much as I disliked Hasting's military analysis, his observation of the German Army's moral situation is perspicacious: The German soldiers, by fighting for Germany, also denfended Germany's depraved political system, whose appetite for murder was not dampened by its military defeats. The camps were murdering millions by 44-45, and what kept the allied armies from liberating them? The Nazi regime was by then killing Germans too. What is the honor in defending this system? Patriotism has its limits. I can only wish that if I am ever put into that situation I would find the courage to be a coward.

JeffinMNUSA · May 29, 2009

PzJgr said:

I remember alot of what he shared with me before he passed away. I also have one of his journals that I have been reading, translating more like it. I won't detract from this thread but will start a thread in the future.
Click to expand...

PZ;
Excellent! My favorite WWII vet passed away recently, and I felt this huge obligation to my family and to history to get as much of his story as possible out there. http://news.webshots.com/album/165744933gHnoFw
JEffinMNUSA
PS. There are some books on The Spanish Blue Division; http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Spanish-Legion-Division-Russia/dp/0809308657 They were anti Communist volunteers who had often had some bitter experiences with the Reds during the Spanish Civil War.
PSS. A friend of mine met a Finnish Wiking volunteer back in the 60s; http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2130/ The man was the sole survivor of a platoon that was overrun near a frozen lake and that he escaped across the ice. Dave said the guy was the most rock solid man he had ever met.
PSSS. So was Spain better off with Franco? Given the fact that the Bolsheviks might have seized power with a Republican win-as they did in Russia-the answer would seem to be yes. Spain in the Stalinist camp? Well this is one for the "Whatif" section.

C.Evans · May 29, 2009

Totenkopf said:

I very much appreciate the Rep.

I do strongly agree with you and Pz that it isnt fair that we should judge those who cannot defend themselves. Who are non-veterans to judge veterans?
Click to expand...

Quite welcome and glad to show my apppreciation to someone whose posts I like and like reading.

C.Evans · May 29, 2009

Friedrich said:

Letting aside the 'bravos' and 'amens' that contribute so much to a high quality discussion, I have to strongly disagree again:

That acusation that I'm 'epically twisting the truth' is rather a complete lack of profundity in the matter being discussed.

First, I wonder why is it that we don't talk about Russia, in WWII, but rather about the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, and try so hard to make a distinction about Germany and Nazi Germany.

Second, the history of Germany and that of the Nazi Party, of régime and country, was so closely linked during this period precisely because the Nazi Party and Nazi ideals incarnated many of Germany's 'values' and ambitions.

There can even be a stronger argument in favour of calling the USSR's 'Great Patriotic War' as defensive. It was for sure more defensive than Germany's, since Germany broke a non-agression pact between the two countries and invaded the Soviet Union. And yet we do accept that the Red Army was Stalin's Army, that it fought to spread communism. That its defensive war ended in the conquest of the Baltic States and the invasion of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary... That it helped creating satellite communist dictatorships. And that is in a country (the Soviet Union), whose population was far more terrorised than the German population under nazism. Communism was a more 'international' ideology and the communist State tried very hard to controll its population.

Now, unlike communism, which was not exceptionally Russian, nazism was Germanic in essence (and did not try, not even remotely, as hard to impose its acceptance on the population). So, we're stepping in a very, very slight border between the two, the Nazi régime and the German nation. As T. L. Jarman's magnificent book The Rise and Fall of Nazi Germany states in its first chapters, it was typical German megalomania (Germanic militarism, belicism, nationalism, State-latry, cult of blind obedience, authoritarianism and racism) what shaped nazism (see Norbert Elias book The Germans). And that was the tradition belonging to most Germans, from which upsurged the Army's military chaste, the Junker aristocracy, big industrialists, nationalist scientists and intellectuals (Wagner, Nietzsche), conservative middle classes... And, as Hannah Arendt explains, every human community shares a tradition. Hence, the responsibility of the individual to that tradition, to which he owes his personality and which he helps shaping.

Even before the outbreak of WWI, the worst of this German tradition was already pointing to the elimination of the socialist and liberal opposition, a purge of 'alien' entities from society (Jews, Gypsies) and, of course, supremacy over Europe by force. Nazism didn't invent all that, just made even more extreme and did carry it out relentessly.

Maybe you can indeed talk about a war for the defence of Germany at some point of the war. 1944, perhaps? Certainly 1945, to stop or delay the instauration of communist rule and the inevitable revenge of the Soviets. But, in 1939? Poland, Denmark, Norway, even France and the same USSR? There is no way to deny that it was a war of agression, unleashed by Hitler, but carried out by the German nation, for the sake of many of the interests of the very same German nation and not just those of Hitler and his NSDAP.

Yes, you are right. But you can't also deny that there was a very convenient alliance between Army and régime, can you? That the Army, as an institution, shared many of the military objectives of Hitler, Himmler, Rosenberg... (military defeat of France and Britain, supremacy over Europe, territorial conquest of Austria, Bohemia and Moravia, Poland, the Ukraine, the destruction of the Soviet régime)? But then, the SS, Waffen or Allgemeine? You can't say that the SS did not endorse everything the government did!

It is only necessary to see some of the testimonies of the German generals in the documentary I suggested (and on written sources)... Their complaints about the massive slaughter of Jews were about the methods used by Einsatzgruppen. The killing itself was rarely questioned. Perhaps there was concern about women and children. Even the men who outstand amongst the mejority of German officers as the just ones (Von Choltitz, Von Tresckow, Hoeppner, Von Kluge, Von Stülpnagel...) were either timid to express complaints, quietly supported them or even openly participated in such crimes.

I cannot accept that. Nor dd the Nuremberg tribunal. Nor anyone with common sense can. That would mean that the soldier has no concience and is nothing but a robot. Höss, Eichmann, Nebe, Ohlendorff... all claimed to be soldiers, just following orders.
Click to expand...

Did I strike a chord with you? ) The AMENS and Bravos contribute almost as much to this senseless and unfounded thread as does your posted info which is slanted as always.

BWilson · May 29, 2009

C.Evans said:

The AMENS and Bravos contribute almost as much to this senseless and unfounded thread
Click to expand...

C.Evans, the assertion that this thread is "senseless and unfounded" is quite wrong.

It is plain to see that even only among the members of this forum that there are seriously divergent views regarding this issue. I would guess the divergence is just as pronounced among those of the general public who are interested in these matters.

You may not care for threads that discuss criminal behavior among members of the German armed forces, but ridiculing the topic as "senseless and unfounded" is not well grounded and will not make the topic go away.

Cheers

BW

PzJgr · May 29, 2009

This topic is going in circles. I'm closing it for lack of additional content.

Log in or Sign up

The 'ordinary' soldiers of the Wehrmacht

Triple C Ace

JeffinMNUSA Member

C.Evans Expert

C.Evans Expert

BWilson Member

PzJgr Drill Instructor

Share This Page

About US

Useful Links