The Pershing, IS-2 and Tiger 2

Them all !!!?? It'll take ages !! (Ill do it though, if you want me to)

Yes the theory was already done by the Germans

Yeah thats what they say, i wonder how much information leaked though. But aparantly enough.

But we're talking WW2 tanks Grieg, not postwar tanks Want me to mention the Leopard aswell ?

Also the Panther was superior to the M26 Pershing, and the M26 Pershing was roughly on equal with the Tiger-I in usefullness.

Well dipite all that, "Overkill is good kill". "Me Tarzan, you Jane" Sry couldnt resist

?? Hyperpole

Ok, lets remain realistic about this

Btw 487 TigerII's were manufactured, and over 6,700 Panthers were produced in WW2.

Hey thats my name, don't wear it out ! :-?

 

German nationals involved in the Manhattan project? (not people of ethnic German origin..that would comprise a significant portion of the US population)
Please do so.

Again what combination are you referring to? All scientific advancement draws on everything that has preceeded it but that does not mean that there was a cooperative effort...far from it. We were at war with Germany, as I recall 8)


Quote:
The Russians had one soon after because of the disloyal spies that passed on the needed information to the Russians.


Yeah thats what they say, i wonder how much information leaked though. But aparantly enough.

The difference is that the M-47/48/60 series were direct descendents of the m-26..an evoltionary design. What German wartime tank are you claiming that the Leopard evolved from?

I think you totally missed the point. Overkill is a good kill yes but "just good enough to kill" is a kill also..thus parity.

hyperbole

n : extravagant exaggeration [syn: exaggeration]

I believe that was my point

And how does that compare to the number of US tanks produced?

 

Forgive me for this Grieg, please

How can you be a spy and disloyal?

Sorry, that was plain silly. :roll: I knew what you meant.

But a serious point - the CCCP did get the know-how from the US.
Interestingly, the US got a fair bit of the early knowledge from Britain. We were working on it but ran out of resources etc. And I should point out that whatever they got from the UK was nowhere near enough to give them anything more than a small boost along the way. Frankly, the US was (IMO) the only country capable of actually geting the brainpower & the resources together to get the darn thing to a workable state. The fact that many of the scientists were of German origin or training is rather irrelevant, really. They were after all in America, not Germany . As an almost-parallel, the Enigma-cracking 'bombe' computer was based on Polish designs, but is still seen as a 'British' contribution to the war effort.

 

Can´t take that much time. It was mostly an American/British/Canadian project as far as I can recall. But please, give us a few. Three or four perhaps ?

Which theory is this ? What were the names of these Germans ?

 

And offcourse Skua goes strait for my neck :roll:

Thats easy: Edward Teller, Otto Frisch and Felix Bloch, and these were of the "Top" scientists in the program. And like most of the scientists envolved Oppenheimer also took his education in Germany, and without it he would never know what he knew, and he is half German Btw.

The Splitting of an Atom was the theory of a German. (Name on the way)

KBO

 

Now what do you know ! The Splitting of an Atom theory was first made by an Englishman, German and a Dane !!

Niels Bohr, Ernest Rutherford and Hans Geiger.

I initially remembered only Geiger was envolved.

Btw it was Austrian and German scientists who showed that when uranium is struck by neutrons, it splits into two nearly equal parts plus one or two extra neutrons. It was also a German who discovered X-rays, Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen was his name.

KBO

 

KBO wrote:

Apparently not so easy Frisch was Austrian born but a British citizen. Bloch was Swiss. Teller was a Hungarian born American citizen.
Oppenheime studied at Harvard and Cambridge and also studied in Germany. You ignore all his education except the time he was in Germany? He was born in America..how does the half German part come about and which half was it

 

No, I´m not. I´m asking you valid questions. Perhaps forcing you to come up with something more than just unsubstansiated statements, which is an unfortunate habit of yours.

 

Your are worng about the extent to which the M-26 was underpowered.

M-26: 42t, 500 HP = 11,9 HP/t

Tiger I: 55t,700 HP = 12,7 HP/t

Tiger II: 69t, 600 HP = 8,6 HP/t

What about a not so large number of Shermans(76mm) and some "heavy" Pershings? IMO thats the ideal mix.

 

Oh come on ! Making Unsubstansiated statements is something we all do Skua.

Grieg you forgot this: Edward left Budapest to study chemical engineering in Karlsruhe, Germany.
In Karlsruhe, Teller became intrigued by physics, particularly the new theory of quantum mechanics. The young chemical engineer transferred to the University of Munich in 1928 to pursue this interest


And this: Otto Frisch was born on 1 October 1904 in Vienna, Austria. He received his doctorate degree in 1926 from the University of Vienna and continued to conduct research at the universities in Berlin and Hamburg, Germany.

And this: Oppenheimer received his Ph.D. in Germany in 1925.

Maybe because his Father was German

 

And this makes him German?

And he moved to England and became a citizen.

None of that makes him German.

The Nazi's became obsessed with the percentage of a person's blood and to which racial/ethnic group they descended from. In the US we cared less about that kind of thing. Many of the soldiers fighting to end the Nazi regime were of German descent ethnically..they were..and they considered themselves to be Americans.

As far as studying in Germany well many prominent scientists studied abroad. England also was a center of advanced learning and research. Many prominent European scientists came to the US to study as well.

 

These are the correct numbers:

M26 Pershing: 41.82 ton, 500 Hp =11.67 Hp/t

Tiger-I: 56 ton, 700 Hp = 12.5 Hp/t

Tiger-II: 68 ton, 700 Hp = 10.29 Hp/t

Also the Torque of the Pershing's Ford engine wasnt at all adequate, it had too small a pulling power wich made it even worse than the TigerII. The TigerII on the other hand had Gearbox problems, the Maybach Engine with its more than adequate torque had no problem pulling the TigerII over rough terrain, but the Gearbox had severe problems with this great pulling power.

KBO

 

I said Half German, wich he was, as his father was German.

The "Nazi's" were Hitler's creation (Who Btw was Austrian).

As far as physics go, the Germans were far ahead, wich is why so many scientists studied there.

All im trying to point out is that the Germans were just as and more advanced than the U.S. in WW2. You can't say that Americans are smarter than the Europeans because they invented the A-Bomb, wich infact was created by scientists from all over Europe ! Without Otto Frisch, Hans Geiger, Edward Teller, Felix Bloch, Niels Bohr and Ernest Rutherford there would be NO A-Bomb for the U.S. in WW2.

KBO

 

KBO wrote:

Nationality does not follow bloodlines. He was 100% American.

In manufacturing and engineering clearly they were not since they did not build an A- bomb ... which is how this discussion began. we were discussing technology of production.

Can you please point me to the comment I made to that effect? I didn't say that was the case so why should you bother to deny it's truth?

 

Are you basing a country's Tech on the A-Bomb ?? :lol:

As I said the U.S. hardly made any prior beneficial research to create the A-Bomb, the Europeans did on the other hand !

Without Hans Geiger's research, it is unlikely there would ever have been an A-Bomb until very recently.

In WW2 the Germans were far ahead overall in tech, accept it. They made Stealth aircraft, Highly advanced Sub's, UFO like/Flying disc(Yep its true) and lot and lots of other things.

Now im not saying the U.S. were stupid, or any other country, just that they were last to come up with the Idea, but luckely were industrially superior.

How about your little comment above ?

 

I said "manufacturing and engineering" I didn't say anything about the theory on which it was founded or the research preceeding it. Only one wartime program "manufactured and engineered" the building of a nuclear weapons. That fact is indisputable

In some areas they were however you persist in things that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. We were talking about production, not research. How many of those things were mass produced and got into battle?

How about your little comment above ?

#1. I had not yet made the comment at the time that you made yours so you could hardly be referring to it.

#2. The comment I made says nothing about who was "smarter".
My comment was to the effect that the US, in the area of "manufacturing and engineering" a nuclear weapon was clearly ahead of Germany.
Germany never came close to actually building an A bomb.

 

Germany could easely have build one aswell, but their silly Nazi regime kicked out alot of useful scientists, and their resources were too scarse for fighting a HUGE multiple-frontier-war.

The Tech was undoubtedly there, but the resources werent.

I thought we were talking Tech ? Not Industrial power. Sure the U.S. was industrially superior, but their manufacturing methods just werent as complex and good in quality as the German ones.

This is what you said ealier Grieg:
Surely you don't think that a technology that could produce an atomic warhead in 3 years, the largest and most complex engineering problem in history, while at the same time designing and manufacturing the most advanced aircraft and aircraft carriers, fleet submarines etc. was incapable of producing a tank equal to the Tiger

Now how am I going to interpret that ?

Fact is the Germans made far more complex machines than the U.S., but to few of them. The U.S. had a nack for building reliable "Mediums", in great numbers.

The A Bomb is no example on U.S. Tech in manufacturing, but an example of a bunch of United nations Tech in Manufacturing.

KBO

 

Nobody could "easily" have built one..or they would have done so.

There is no evidence to support that notion except, as I stated earlier, in the area of large slabs of RHA.

You are free to interpret my comments as you chose but not to change them. I said nothing about "smarter". What I did say is true IMO. The capability was there.

Complex, in engineering terms, is often a negative rather than a positive.
things should only be as complex as is absolutely necessary and should be as simple as is possible and still accomplish the design goals.

No other nations were involved in the manufacturing process AFAIK.

 

However you originally tried to prove that it was all a German invention merely carried out properly by the US, which however didn't turn out to be true. I don't really see the relevance of the A-bomb in the debate on heavy tanks but neither do I see any reason for you, KBO, to continue with the discussion after you've been proven wrong.

The Americans were in no serious way behind on the Germans in tank design except in terms of optics and steel quality. However they had invented a way to prevent ammo from exploding inside the tank, which the Germans hadn't done yet.

 

No, a bold statement by me, but they could nontheless.

Yes there is. Tank ammunition made in Germany was for a fact much superior in quality, and beyond the shatter-gap region, as well as being finished with very high precision.

What capability ? to build a tank as good as the Tiger at the same time, never, as the knowledge on heavy tank building was very scarse in the U.S., plus optics and tankgun-tech were of severely lower quality and accuracy. (Zeiss has a long history of accurate optics, and Rheinmetall a long history of very accurate guns)

Yes that is also part of the truth, and the Germans were also affected by this sometimes. (The First Panter's werent exactly "Wunderbar")

No but the Design of the manufacture. The manufacturing was quite simple once you had instructions to guide you.

I havent been proven wrong ! Many Germans took part in the Manhatten project, and one even secured it could at all take place.


Best regards, KBO.