Top 10 tanks of the war

Thats is true also.

 

That's where I wanted to reach. Another pretty vehicle for modellers, but built in such low numbers (like the Ferdinand) and entailing so many problems that they could be more of a liability than an asset.

Footnotes, curiosities.

 

Allthough I'm a big fan of German hardware. In particular the Panther tank. IMO the Sherman tank despite some of it's so called flaws (protection/firepower/profile), Was a tank built for the needs of the time and was a true war winner for the allies. Easy to build and quickly field repair. Interchangable parts to one another despite what version it was allowed field mantenance workers to quickly canibalize from other Shermans and throw out the same Sherman the Germans or Japanese had destroyed only hours or days before. Remember WWII was a war of attricion. And no tank provided for that better than the Sherman. The Sherman was also a very versitile platform being armed in several different ways. 75mm/76mm/105mm/17pdr and even the 90mm mounted on a Sherman chassis with an M36 TD turret. The latest version M4A3E8 had new HVSS wide track suspension system and 76mm gun. It was a fine overall tank all around. And lets not forget how the Sherman platform could still be made to support at very difficult tank to knock out. Anyone out there ever heard of the M4A3E2 Jumbo Assault tank ?. Frontally and pretty much from any angle of attack, It was immune to the German 88mm FlaK,88mm L/56,75mm L/70,75mm L/48 calibers guns. Only if these guns fired heavily rationed and in short supply APCR ammunition would they have any hopes of penetrating a Jumbo frontally. And that still had to be a close range even then. Only the German Pak 43 88mm at close range firing standard ammo or medium range firing APCR shot had any real chance against an M4A3E2 frontally. Only the German King Tiger provided better overall frontal protection and that wasn't by a whole lot either. The M4A3E2 had turret armor thickness of 152mm on it's front, side and rear. The turret front was also further protected by a large 178mm thick gun mantlet. Lets just say the M4A3E2 easily provided the best turret protection of any tank of WWII. The front upper hull protection was 102mm thick angled at 47 degrees and the transmission cover was rounded and at 140mm thickness and gradually reduced to a minumum thickness of 114.5mm where the transmission cover attached to the upper hull. The transmision cover was angled at 47 degrees at the upper and 56 degrees at the lower side. Upper side armor was increased to 75mm thickness at 0 degree angle. Be it a limited production Sherman. This is only an example of what the Sherman platform was capable of. Later versions of the M4A3E2 tank (over 100) had their 75mm guns replaced with 76mm guns. This model coupled with that gun and that kind of armor was more that a match for any Tiger I or Panther it might chance run into. If it hadn't been for the US Army pushing so hard to quickly get the Pershing tank fielded, It was planned to make M4A3E2 Jumbo's standard pruduction tanks with HVSS track/suspension systems and armed with 76mm guns. Just imagine hordes of these milling about the battlefield.

 

Well, there weren't "hordes of these milling about the battlefield", 250 in total I think, but nice try for a guy calling himself Panther II

 

Come on Za Rodinu, Didn't you read my post properly?? ... hahaha

I never said there were hordes of M4A3E2's milling about the battlefield. As said just "imagine" hordes of them. Yes there were only 254 of this Sherman type produced. I mentioned the M4A3E2 Sherman to simply show what the Sherman platform was capable of. Most folks seem to usually image the Sherman as an instant firebomb once it gets hit. But the fact is, With the M4A3E2 what you got was just exactly the opposite of that. This was a tank that was hard as hell for German AT guns and tanks to deal with.

This showed the Sherman chassis was able to handle at least 42 tons. And at 42 tons, the M4A3E2 easily provided better overall protection than any other tank in that weight class. Alot of weight carried or by the German Panther and Tiger models were wasted if one wants to say that, Becouse of their suspension designs and tracks. Not so with a Sherman VSS or HVSS suspension set up.

 

An even match would be more appropriate than "more than a match". Jumbo sherman had a higher silouette, a gun that was inferior to the Panther's gun, and optics that were inferior to the Germans.

The Jumbo was a fine tank, but all this "easily better than" is a far too generous assessment.

 

Was poring over The Combat History of German Heavy Anti Tank Unit 653 for more tidbits on the mechanical issues with the Jagdtiger. Some interesting info that really shines the light on the massive problems the vehicle had.
Engines and Drive trains were downright horrible. Severly, SEVERLY underpowered. And one of the interesting things mentioned is the maintenance availability. Because the Jadgtigers were so huge and required such specialized support teams, there was a far greater problem with being able to repair breakdowns than other German tanks. Very few (if any?) parts were shared with other vehicles, hence spare parts were in very short supply. Massive weight made cranes a requirement for most any repairs.
And because there were so few Jagdtigers in service in so few units, there apparently were also rarely enough specialized service personnel available. And if the properly trained people weren't "busy" at any given time, it was still likely that they wouldn't be in the same areas as the Jagdtigers. So ad-hoc repairs were often needed, which made the already unreliable JgdTigers even more succeptible to breakdown.

All this generated a lack of confidence in the vehicles, leading to even further diminished battlefield effectiveness.

Vicious circle, there.

And think of how many Hetzers/JgdPzr IVs/Stugs could have been manufactured for the same resources/trouble.

I'll see if I can isolate some of the better quotes when I've got more time tomorrow.

(And sorry for the JagdTiger tangent, but figured it's interesting and at least related to the original thread idea! )

 

Panther II: sorry for my hasty reading, I see what you mean

Crazy D: I agree as well, better to apply the resources in more cost-effective systems. Formally I'd leave the Hetzer out, but considering it was so cheap it had be effective, even if only able to be crewed by Hitlerjunge

 

After reading all about the Jagdtiger's reliability (or lack thereof) I'm astonished as to how Germany decided to waste resources in their production.

 

Za Roninu: Thanks! .. no problem. Just wanted to make my statement more clear.

 

CrazyD: Well all things considered here, your probably right. The Panther and the Tiger I were positively better gun platforms with superior optics. The M4A3E2 armed with a 76mm gun offset it's firepower inferiority to those tanks with it's better protection. What I will say is that the M4A3E2's frontal protection and it's turret (the most exposed on most any tank and most likely to be hit) protection, Is that it was much better. Better to the point that firing standard AP or rationed APCR shot, It may just have had a slightly better chance against the Panther and Tiger I. That with those two German tank types firing the same type of ammo. (standard AP and APCR).

 

PantherII- Oh, no doubt AT ALL about that- the Jumbo Sherman was a major upgrade over the normal one. And, it would be able to "compete" with the Tiger/Panther.

I would put it a notch below those two german tanks, but nowhere near as big a notch below as most other Allied tanks.

And- by the time the British/Americans were facing German armor in Normandy, the allied tanks didn't NEED to be massively better. Between the total air supremacy the allies enjoyed and the ever-increasing logistical problems the germans were facing, Allied forces- tanks included- had some pretty significant advantages.

Throw in a few Jumbo shermans, and that's just one more advantage.

Discussions like this about "the best [armored fighting vehicle]" are tricky- are we talking about the best afv strictly on the merits of the vehicle itself, or are we talking about the best afv in terms of the overall situation at the time and in the location?

Always fun though!

anzer:

 

I dont know about that. I mean, Patton was a great General and all, probably the best the U.S. has ever had, but he did under estimate the value of a good heavy tank. In reference to the production of the M26 Pershing:

"Patton interpreted the armed forces doctrine to a T and cited it as his reason for not favoring the M26. He said that the tanks of an armored division were not supposed to fight other tanks, but bypass them if possible and attack enemt objectives to the rear."

"Patton felt that because the M4 tank was lighter and required less fuel than the M26, it would be faster and more agile and was better equipped to perform the mission of the armored divisions"

Pages 28 & 29, "Death Traps: The survival of an American Armored Division in World War II" by Belton Y. Cooper

Mr. Cooper recalled these events from a meeting he and other Officers had with Patton before the Normandy Invasion. He talks quite extensively on these few pages about Patton, and while I'd be more than happy to transcribe them all, Im not sure my Boss would be all that happy about it.

Mr. Coopers book btw, is really a great read. If you havent read it yet, you should pick it up!

 

Za-I tried that card (The one about numbers) earlier in the thread but apparently we are talking about a 1v1 at long rage with the JT in a brilliant spot and the ISU-152 in the middle of an open valley or something.

That's a very fair contest!

 

I should have checked that one! Goes to show how "rusty" I am!

Visually, you'd *think* the Panther was lower... the silhouette is much sleeker looking than the Sherman. But numbers are numbers, and they tend not to lie.

 

Hey Rodinu!
Those 2 things are meat and drink to me, leave 'em alone!



Mmmmmmmm.
'Extemporised Armoured Bulldozers. 1950-75', now that's what I call a bedtime read!

Cheers,
Adam

 

Trade you for vols. 3 and 7 of Lenin's Complete Cross Stitching.

 

m_kenny had posted this earlier in yet another thread about WWII tanks LOL.