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True in Russian - Georgian conflict!

Discussion in 'Military History' started by Soviet man, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Im a equal opportunity basher LOL. Be it the US,Israel,Iran, Russia, Georgia, whoever. But Ill will state again that I think BOTH SIDES are wrong. Russia more so NOW since the amount of damage and action far outweigh the original actions of Georgia. Its as simple as that. What Israel did 2 years ago I could care less when it comes to this situation.
     
  2. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Not surprisingly enough BOTH SIDES accuse eachother of atrocities and crimes.

    Georgians accuse Russian army of atrocities



    Tony Halpin in Tbilisi and Adam LeBor


    Georgians fleeing the violence in South Ossetia have accused the Russian Army and its allies of atrocities, arson and organised looting.
    Terrified refugees told of Cossack and Ossetian troops wreaking havoc in villages around the Ossetian capital Tskhinvali as Russian soldiers looked on. An estimated 118,000 people have now fled the conflict zone, most to Georgia’s capital, Tbilisi.
    More than 500 were being sheltered yesterday at the derelict building that used to house Georgia’s Ministry of Finance. Zia Sabashvili, 39, spoke of how she fled with her husband and two daughters from the village of Khekvi as the Russian Army and its advance guard of irregulars approached.
    “Cossacks came into our village and stole everything from people’s homes. Then they set them on fire,” she said. “My neighbour was 80 and she could not leave, so they burnt her to death in her home.” Mrs Sabashvili said that other refugees had told her that Ossetian and Cossack soldiers had dragged a 15-year-old girl from their minibus near Kareleti, between Ossetia and the Georgian city of Gori, which remained under occupation by Russian troops and tanks yesterday.
    “They took a liking to this girl and pulled her out in front of her parents. Then they forced the bus to drive on. Nobody could do anything.”
    Uran Jojoshvili said that his uncle, Valeko, 65, had been killed by marauding Ossetian irregulars in the village of Vanatzi. He said: “They kicked his door to steal everything but when they saw him they shot him twice in the heart. They were evil, stealing everything and shooting everyone.”
    The tales from Georgia are chillingly familiar to anyone who witnessed the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s or the current conflict in Darfur: masked fighters at impromptu roadblocks, refugees stripped of their meagre posessions pleading for their lives at gunpoint, plumes of smoke rising over torched and looted villages.
    They point to the increasing presence of paramilitaries on the world’s battlefields carrying out the dirty work of murder and “ethnic cleansing” that regular armies balk at.
    Idrak Abbasov, a reporter for the Institute for War and Peace Reporting, witnessed many irregular fighters on the streets of Gori, identified by white armbands, some from Chechnya.
    The paramilitaries shot at journalists and UN aid workers, who were forced to flee their vehicles.
    “The Russian Army can’t be bothered to bring the paramilitaries under control. Its attitude is ‘let them have their revenge’,” Thomas de Waal, the institute’s Caucasus editor, said.
    On the road to Gori yesterday, Margarita Akhvlediani and her husband were dragged out of their car by four unkempt Ossetian fighters brandishing weapons. The fighters stole their car, video camera, money and personal papers.
    Ms Akhvlediani, who is a Georgian journalist, told The Times: “We were in an area that nobody controlled. There were no Georgians or Russians there. The gunmen came from the forest, like partisans, shooting and shouting, wild men with strange eyes. They spoke Ossetian and were wearing camouflage, the same as the Georgian Army, but they weren’t like the proper army.” The couple said they were lucky to escape with their lives.
    Many reports are now emerging of murderous paramilitaries on the rampage, the Russian Army either unwilling or unable to help them.
    As refugees sorted through clothes and donated groceries at Kindergarten No 170 in Shanidze Street, Tbilisi, yesterday, Georgi Miasukadze said his friend had witnessed a 75-year-old neighbour, Tengiz Mindiashvili, being killed after attempting to flee invading Cossacks. He said: “They caught up with him, dragged him back to his home, locked him in and set fire to it.”
    Brutality was not, however, the monopoly of the irregulars, according to the refugees.
    Elsa Kasradze and her sister Nazo spoke of how they had fled with their terrified children in a car as a Russian aircraft fired shots along the road around them.
    “They were shooting at houses to destroy them but they knew that there were only civilians there, not military,” Nazo said. “There were bodies of people who had been shot all along the road.”



    Georgians accuse Russian army of atrocities - Times Online


    Ethnic violence warning as Georgia and Russia swap atrocity claims



    Charles Bremner and Kevin O'Flynn in Moscow


    Russian-backed forces were accused of burning and looting villages in Georgia today as the United States and humanitarian groups warned that the conflict in the Caucasus could be unleashing ethnic violence between Georgians and natives of South Ossetia, the breakaway province.
    Moscow and the Georgians have been trading charges of atrocities and ethnic cleansing since the outbreak of the fighting last Friday but alarm grew today after witnesses reported brutality, in particular by South Ossetian militia.
    Even a senior South Ossetian commander acknowledged that looting had been taking place, saying "war is war'. The Russian Government continued to accuse President Mikhail Saakashvili of unleashing genocide and killing 2,000 civilians, but it promised to punish any troops found looting.
    Human rights observers on the ground in South Ossetia told the Times that the Russians were wildly exaggerating the claims of mass killings by Georgian forces.

    "The use of terms such as genocide is absolutely irresponsible," said Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch, after she had visited the main hospital in Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital.
    The hospital reported that 44 people - mainly civilians - had been killed in the city during the Georgian offensive there, she told The Times by telephone.
    The result was to fan hatred for Georgians among neighbours who had previously been friendly to them, she said.
    The Russians were out-done in their allegations by President Saakashvili, whose claims have become more extreme by the day.
    "Russian tanks are going through villages inhabited by the Georgian population and throwing people out of the houses, pushing people into concentration camps that they are setting up in those villages and separating men and women," he told US television.
    Witnesses said hundreds of South Ossetian militia, some with Russian army personnel, went earlier this week house-to-house in villages near Gori, the Georgian city nearest the breakaway province.
    They set dozens of houses ablaze and looted buildings.
    The body of a man lay in a street in the village of Dzardzanis and nearby the body of a bearded man could be seen crushed under an overturned mini-van, a French journalist reported. Take whatever you want! It's all free," said a Russian special services soldier who was driving a looted BMW with a column of civilian vehicles near Gori, which was under the control of Russian forces today.
    The Human Rights Watch said its staff in South Ossetia had "witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians."
    Ms Neistat told The Times of devastation in four villages where numerous houses had been burnt and the population had fled, leaving only a few elderly residents who had been unwilling or unable to leave. Russian troops have since been preventing Ossetian irregulars from entering the villages, she said. The refugee residents faced desperate conditions, she added.
    Michael Binyon says Russia has been biding its time - but its victory in Georgia has been brutal and brilliant.Holly Carter, regional director of Human Rights Watch, said: "The Russian government should be held to its promise to punish looters but much more needs to be done to ensure that all sides protect civilians."
    In Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, Mattew Bryza, the US envoy, said: "We have credible reports of villages being burned, of shootings, of killings of innocent people and civilians. Again we appeal to the government of Russia and to the Russian military forces on the ground, around Gori, in the zone of conflict, near the zone of conflict, to make sure their forces are doing nothing in terms of violence," he said.
    Russia said that it was gathering evidence for charges of genocide against Georgia, accusing it of driving 30,000 refugees out of South Ossetia. Russian officers began interrogating Georgian prisoners today.
    Georgia has responded by filing a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice in the Hague which alleges ethnic cleansing between 1993 and 2008.
    An account of looting of killing and looting of ethnic Georgians also appeared today in Novoie Izvestia, a Moscow newspaper.
    It described the shame of a South Ossetian commander over the behaviour of special forces personnel which fired into homes in Georgian ethnic villages before kicking down doors and helping themselves to stereo equipment and other valuables.
    "Reaching the village of Nul, where unripe vines and unmilked cows could be still be seen, the Ossetian forces sprayed the village with bullets from afar," it said. Alan, one of the irregular fighters, said that: most of the residents ran away after but the soldiers decided to "clean out" the village in case any locals were lying in wait. “We do not want Georgians to return here again. We will build a base for peacekeepers in villages like Nul. They will belong to Russia and to South Ossetia,” he said.
    Amnesty International said that was gathering information and called on all sides to "ensure that no further atrocities take place".
    In Moscow, the government said that it was sending $400 million worth of aid to relieve and start rebuilding South Ossetia after a conflict which, according to the United Nations, has forced 100,000 people to flee their homes.
    The allegations of brutality were far from one-sided. Human Rights Watch also collected accounts from South Ossetians who were driven from their homes by Georgian troops.
    Ada Alburova, 32, said that she had seen bodies of women and children after emerging from two days’ hiding in her grandparents’ basement in Tskhinvali.“We will write down it all and the guilty should pay,” said the charity worker from Vladikavkaz, the capital of Russian-administered North Ossetia. “People could not believe that Georgia was capable of that," she said.

    Ethnic violence warning as Georgia and Russia swap atrocity claims - Times Online
     
  3. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Who are we to believe?

    Russian bomb killed Dutch cameraman in Georgia

    Published: Friday 15 August 2008 07:04 UTC
    Last updated: Friday 15 August 2008 11:26 UTC


    Human Rights Watch says the Dutch cameraman who was killed on Tuesday in Georgia died from injuries caused by a Russian cluster bomb. The human rights organisation says that Russia bombed at least two Georgian cities with cluster munitions.

    RTL cameraman Stan Storimans and seven others were killed during a Russian bombing raid on the Georgian city of Gori on Tuesday. RTL correspondent Jeroen Akkermans, also covering the conflict in Georgia's separatist South Ossetia province, was injured in the attack.

    Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife of President Mikheil Saakashvili, has offered her condolences to Mr Storimans' relatives and will attend his funeral.

    Latest News - Radio Netherlands Worldwide - English


    NGOs denounce Russia's alleged use of cluster bombs


    AFP

    Published: Friday, August 15, 2008
    GENEVA - Non-governmental organizations on Friday denounced Russia's alleged use of cluster bombs on Georgia, including on the flashpoint town of Gori, which they said killed at least 11 civilians.
    Human Rights Watch (HRW) initially made the report and said the dead included a Dutch journalist and that dozens more had been wounded.
    "Russia's use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch, in a statement.

    • The Cluster Munition Coalition (CMC), the International Campaign to Ban Landmines (ICBL) and Handicap International also denounced any use of landmines in the Georgia-Russia conflict.
    HRW researchers said they had spoken to doctors and victims and had examined photographic evidence that led them to conclude that cluster bombs had been used in Gori and the nearby town of Ruisi, south of the breakaway region of South Ossetia.
    "Russia should now urgently give information about the cluster bomb strikes to help clearance of unexploded submunitions and avoid further casualties in the months and years to come," said ICBL executive director Sylvie Brigot.
    A senior Russian commander denied the allegation Friday.
    The cluster bomb report is a "well-prepared lie," the deputy head of Russia's General Staff, Anatoly Nogovityn, said in a televised press conference.
    Dropped from planes or fired from artillery, cluster bombs explode in mid-air, scattering bomblets. They pose a lasting threat as many bomblets fail to explode on impact and act as landmines.
    The CMC umbrella group condemned the alleged incidents and urged governments to join them in doing so.
    "Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers," said CMC coordinator Thomas Nash.
    "Russia's use of cluster bombs in civilian areas in the face of this international action shows a callous disregard for humanity."
    CMC spokesman Branislav Kapetanovic, who was injured while clearing cluster bombs for the Yugoslav army, added: "Last week Russia reported its support for clearance of cluster bombs in Serbia.
    "Now it has senselessly contaminated another country.
    "Russia has a moral and legal obligation to release the types and locations of cluster bombs used and it must do so without delay to prevent further civilian deaths and injuries from unexploded duds."
    HRW Watch called the alleged incident "the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006" when Israel fought against Hezbollah in Lebanon.
    Advocacy groups used the report Friday to urge that an international ban on such weaponry be respected.
    Handicap International called the use of cluster bombs a "breach of international humanitarian law", while ICBL's Brigot spoke of "the urgency of protecting civilians by making the ban effective as soon as possible".
    A landmark international convention banning cluster munitions was formally adopted by 111 countries in Ireland in May in a move that organizers hoped would stigmatize the lethal weapons as much as landmines.
    Georgia and Russia did not take part.

    NGOs denounce Russia's alleged use of cluster bombs

    Russia denies use of cluster bombs in Georgia


    17:11|15/ 08/ 2008[​IMG]


    MOSCOW, August 15 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's top military official denied on Friday claims by a U.S.-based human rights group that Moscow had used cluster bombs in its recent military conflict with Georgia. "Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. "Russia's use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines."
    The organization said that on August 12, Russian planes had dropped cluster bombs on the town of Ruisi in the Kareli district of Georgia, killing three and wounding five. It also said that on the same day, "a cluster strike in the center of the town of Gori killed at least eight civilians and injured dozens."
    The rights group has accused both Russia and Georgia of killing civilians "through indiscriminate attacks" during the conflict.
    However, speaking at a daily news briefing, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the General Staff, said "We did not use cluster bombs, and what's more there was absolutely no necessity to do so."
    He in turn accused Georgian troops of planting mines in Tskhinvali as they retreated from the South Ossetian capital earlier this week.
    Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived in Georgia on Friday as "a sign of U.S. support" for its ally and to push for the withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgia under a French-brokered peace deal.
    Nogovitsyn reiterated that Russian peacekeepers were still in the Georgian city of Gori, close to the de facto border with South Ossetia. He said they were guarding weapons and other military equipment abandoned during the fighting. He said Russian troops had contacted city authorities and arranged aid distribution via local clergymen.
    He also said Russia, Georgia and its two breakaway regions South Ossetia and Abkhazia should sign a new peacekeeping deal.
    Russia, Georgia and South Ossetia earlier each maintained 500 peacekeepers in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone. Russia has accused Georgian peacekeepers of attacking their Russian colleagues when Georgia launched its attack on Tskhinvali on August 8. The self-proclaimed republic has said it will now not allow Georgian peacekeepers into its territory.
    Nogovitsyn said, "We must have guarantees that peacekeepers will be ensuring peace, rather than war."
    The general said Georgia had agreed to exchange lists of servicemen killed, injured or captured during five days of fighting with Russia.
    Nogovitsyn said it was still too early to hand control of Tskhinvali over to civilian authorities. He said not a single civilian institution was currently operating in the city. The general also welcomed outside assistance for the devastated capital.


    RIA Novosti - World - Russia denies use of cluster bombs in Georgia
     
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The difference is, like you said, that Russia wants to make South Ossetia part of Russia, Kosovo help was to make it independent. It seems to me the plan is clear even to you because you say so in your posting....
     
  5. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Thank you Slon, this is the kind of info I appreciate. I knew the Russians weren't giving chocolate medals, so if the man saved lives to get his, he has all my respect and the story deserves t be known.
     
  6. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    The trouble with this and paralell threads is that, paraphrinsing Winnie the Churchill, this is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

    Amateur historians as we most at least pretend are, we have the responsability to know that we have to form our august (or september) opinions on reliable information, carefully sifted and criticised per historiographic methods. Hot news reports, politicians declarations and cookie tv wizard analysts is not reliable information, it's bullshit designed to sell paper or airtime.

    So right now we know next to nothing about the truth in the matter. All we have is opinions, history none. We'll have to wait until proper history methods get to work in order to have better information, in the meantime all we have is politics, distorted to fit mine, yours and every Tom, Dick and Harry's agenda.
     
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  7. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Well said Za. You may have noticed that I got information from several sources and asked for confirmation too. Even eyewitneses will have biased testimonies according to the "side" they have chosen . However the purpose of a forum is to share opinions and each of us can bring our two cents. He who claims to be omniscient is in fact an ignorant, as we are all here to learn. Also my opinion is not rigid, as I get more information, I may sharpen the thoughts I have about this conflict. Only time will time who was right or wrong, probably none of us as the truth is mostly declined in plural in such conflicts.
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    It never was about Danzig or the corridor in 1939- and if it´s between Russia and the US now- it´s not really about the Ossetians and Georgians either...??
     
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  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    From Jim Dunnigan's Strategypage:
    --------------

    Hidden Victories In Georgia


    August 17, 2008: Russian troops beat the Georgians on the ground, not so much because of superior numbers, but because the Russians had more troops with combat experience, and very recent experience in fighting this kind of war. The Russians got this way by fighting a successful campaign just across the border, in Chechnya. There, several hundred thousand Russians and pro-Russian Chechens have gotten valuable combat experience. The Chechen rebels (a mixture of nationalists, gangsters and Islamic radicals) have been reduced to a few hundred hard core fighters. The Russians basically use Chechnya as a training ground where their "contract soldiers" (volunteers, who are much more effective than conscripts) can get some combat experience. These volunteers are particularly common in paratrooper and commando units. Both were apparently used in the ground operations that pushed the Georgians out of South Ossetia, and conquered key areas elsewhere in Georgia. Some of the "Russian" troops were apparently Chechen paramilitary units.


    The Georgian troops had received training and weapons from the U.S. and Israel over the last few years. But the U.S. training was mainly for peacekeeping operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was of limited use against experienced Russian counter-terrorism troops. A small number of Georgians received special operations training, but not enough of these troops were available to defeat the Russian advance.

    The Georgians did better in the air and at sea, even though they were greatly outnumbered there as well. Georgian warplanes shot up the Russians pretty badly (killing the commander of Russian ground forces, for example) before the Russians were able to shut down the Georgian air force. But in the process Russia lost at least four aircraft destroyed, and a number of others badly damaged.

    At sea, Georgian missile boats hit several Russian warships, which had not been equipped with equipment, or crews, that were capable of dealing with this kind of threat. Two Russian warships were damaged sufficiently that they had to withdraw from the area. Within a few days, however, Georgia's miniscule navy and air force were destroyed, largely by the much larger Russian air force.

    The Russians ran a large scale Information War campaign, shutting down Georgian access to the Internet for several days, and blanketing the world media, and Internet, with Russian spin on what was going on in Georgia and why.

    The Russians apparently wanted to intimidate the Georgians into electing a less pro-West government. There are some Georgians who are more inclined to do whatever the Russians want, but it's unclear if this faction has a majority of the votes yet. Some Georgians believe that the Russians are still angry about Josef Stalin, a Georgian who killed more Russians than Adolf Hitler. Stalin is still a hero to Georgians.

    Russia has now shown itself to be a bully. Russia has been trying to annex two parts of Georgia that border Russia, and this war was all about showing Georgians that Russia would rather fight than give up this land grab. The UN was created to deal with this sort of thing, but Russia is doing well, so far, intimidating the UN into inactivity.

    It's not a clear win for the Russians, but, short-term, many things appear to be going their way. Long term, things are rather more murky. Europeans have been reminded that the Russian bully they have feared and despised, for so many centuries, is back in town. That could have interesting consequences down the road. ​
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Ahhhh, at last we're talking shop instead of heating the atmosphere :) :) :)
    -----------------

    Russian ORBAT in Georgia

    GROUND FORCES:

    693rd motorized infantry regiment/19MSD (Vladikavkaz / Zaramag):
    30 T-72,
    126 BMP (121 BMP-2, 5 BRM-1K),
    2 BTR-80
    4 - ZPRK "Tunguska";
    12-2 SZ "Acacia",
    11 BMP-1KSH,
    2 PRP-4, 3 PU-12: 2 RHM; 1 MTU-20,
    2,220 soldiers total.

    135th motorized infantry regiment/19MSD (Prohladnii):
    30 T-72,
    151 BMP (60 BMP-2, 87 BMP-K, 4 BRM-1K);
    1 BTR-80,
    4 - ZPRK "Tunguska";
    11 -2 S19 "Msta-S",
    15 D-30 howitzers;
    3-1 V18, 1 - 1 V19, 2 PRP-4, 7 - R-145BM, 1 PU-12, 1 in AP-88 (BTR-80) 4-MT LBT; 3 RHM-2, 1 MTU-20,
    2,111 soldiers total.

    292nd self-propelled artillery regiment/19MSD (Vladikavkaz):
    36-2 S19 Msta-S,
    12 BM-21 Grad, as well as 3 shells D-30;
    3-1 V18, 1-1 V19, 4 PRP-4 ; 2 R-145BM;
    1 BTR-80,
    911 soldiers total.

    1415th separate rocket artillery battalion (Prohladnii)
    4 - MRLS 9 A52 "Smerch",
    4 - 9 MRLS P140 "Uragan",
    3 - 1 V18, 1-1 V19; 1 PRP-4,
    188 soldiers total.

    239-th separate reconnaissance battalion/19MSD (Vladikavkaz):
    23 BMP (12 BMP-2, 11 BRM-1K),
    6 BTR-80;
    3 BMP-1KSH,
    3 R-145BM;
    345 soldiers.

    1493rd separate engineering battalion/19MSD (Vladikavkaz): 1 MTU-20, 304 soldiers.

    1077th separate electronic warfare battalion /19MSD (Vladikavkaz): 4 SPR-2, 171 soldiers.

    344th separate repair battalion/19MSD (Vladikavkaz): 1-ICC LB; 312 soldiers.

    109th separate logistics battalion/19MSD

    135th separate medical battalion/19MSD.

    Missile Battery 58 - and OA - 4 tactical missile complexes 9 K79 "Tochka-U", transferred to Zaramag.

    Artillery battery from the 205th separate motor Cossack brigade (Budennovsk): 12 - 2 SZ "Akatzia", 12 MRLS BM-21 Grad.

    Artillery battery from the 429th motor-rifle regiment (Mozdok): 12 - 2 SZ "Acatzia", 4 - MRLS "Uragan".

    from 114th missile brigade:
    Missile Battery - 4 tactical missile complexes 9 K79 "Tochka-U."

    from 76th Guards Airborne Division:
    104th regiment (Pskov):
    102 BMD (31 BMD-3, 20 BMD-2, 51 BMD-1),
    34 BTR-D;
    14 2 S9 "Nona";
    ZD BTR-13,
    BTR-6 RD;
    6 BMD-1KSH, 1 BMD-1R, 8 - 1 V119;
    1,554 soldiers.

    from 98th Guards Airborne Division:
    1065th artillery regiment (Kostroma):
    18 - 2 S9 "Nona,
    12 D-30;
    3 BTR-3D, 15 BTR-RD; 2 BMD-1KSH, 7 -1 V119;
    598 soldiers.

    45th separate reconnaissance regiment (Kubinka / Moscow): 690 soldiers.

    From the 42th a motorized infantry division:
    Infantry company from battalion "Vostok"

    From 33rd separate motorized infantry brigade:
    Up to 2 x mountain-rifle battalions.

    From the 22nd Spetznaz brigade:
    Up to 2 battalions.

    Medical detachment SKVO.

    * the T-62s belong to the 42th division units and arrived after the active phase of the fighting was over.

    AIR FORCE:

    From 2457th air base (Ivanovo):
    AWACS aircraft A-50.

    From 185th Air Force Center of training and operational use (Ashuluk, Astrakhan region.):
    A pair of MiG-31 (redeployed to Budennovsk).

    From 4th Air Force training center (968th research and instruction aviation regiment / Lipetsk):
    Wing of Mig-25RB/Su-24MR (redeployed to Budennovsk);
    Wing of Su-27 (redeployed to Mozdok);
    Wing of Su-24M (plus two Su-34) (redeployed to Mozdok airbase and Buddenovsk).

    From 4th Air Army:
    Squadron Su-27 from the 51 air defense corps (redeployed to Buddenovsk);
    Consolidated regiment of Su-24/24M from the 559th and 959th regiments (from Mozdok and Morozovsk);
    Squadron of Su-25/25SM from 368th regiment
    Squadron Mi-24 from the 487 regiment
    2 x squadrons Mi-8, from 487 and 325 regiments.

    From the 16th Air Army:
    Squadron Su-25 from the 899 regiment of the 105 division
    Squadron of Su-24M 455 regiment of the 105 division (with Morozovsk airbase).
    Squadron Mig-25R/Su-24MR (redeployment to Marinivka).

    From 37th Air Army:
    Squadron of Tu-160 from the 121th regiment out of Engels airbase - these were used to carry out strikes on georgian air defense sites and airports, using X-555 and X-101 missiles, the only guided weapons russians used.
    Squadron of Tu-22M3 from the 352th regiment out of Shaikovka airbase.


    NAVY:

    Guided missile cruiser "Moskva"

    Kashin class destroyer "Smetlivii"

    Kara class destroyers "Kerch" and "Ochakov"

    ASW Corvettes "Aleksandrovetz" and "Murometz"

    Guided missile corvette "Miraz"

    4 x missile boats R-239, R-334, R-953, R-954

    Landing ships "Ceasar Kunikov" and "Saratov"

    Rescue ship "Epron"

    Troopship "General Ryabikov"

    2 x Naval Infantry battalions.
     
  11. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Where are the "Militias" and the Georgian forces? LOL
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    [deleted!] :D

    "All politics is local"

     
  13. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Mods, please feel free to delete this image if you feel it's not PC enough :)

    [​IMG]

    Nice combat boots, though :D
     
  14. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    very interesting thread gents

    M ~ where did you receive the ORB for the present Soviet forces on page # 2 ?
     
  15. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    No socks and track shoes? LOL. "Militia" or regular troops?
     
  16. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    From The Economist
    ------------

    Russia resurgent

    Aug 14th 2008

    The war in Georgia is a victory for Russia. The West’s options are limited, but it needs to pursue them firmly

    ON THE night of August 7th, Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia’s president, embarked on an ill-judged assault on South Ossetia, one of his country’s two breakaway enclaves. Russian tanks, troops and aircraft poured across the border. Just five days later, after pulverising the Georgian armed forces, Russia announced that it was ending its operations.

    This brutal and efficient move (see article) was a victory for Vladimir Putin, Russia’s president-turned-prime-minister, not just over Georgia but also over the West, which has been trying to prise away countries on Russia’s western borders and turn them democratic, market-oriented and friendly. Now that Russia has shown what can happen to those that distance themselves from it, doing so will be harder in future.

    Living next to the bear

    Russia has made perfunctory attempts to justify the invasion. It claimed that it was defending Russian citizens. This excuse, as Sweden’s foreign minister tartly noted, recalled Hitler’s justifications of Nazi invasions. Anyway, most of the “Russian citizens” in South Ossetia and Abkhazia had been handed their passports fairly recently, presumably in preparation for this foray.

    Similarly, Russian attempts to draw analogies with NATO’s bombing of Serbia in 1999 and its encouragement of Kosovo’s independence, or with the American-led invasion of Iraq, do not wash. The latest fighting in South Ossetia may have been triggered by the Georgians, but it was largely engineered by the Russians, who have, over the years, fanned the flames of the conflict. As for the Iraqi parallel, not even the Russians pretend that Mr Saakashvili has ever been a threat to his neighbours and to the world.

    This was no sudden response to provocation, but a long-planned move. Mr Putin resents the West’s influence in former Soviet countries such as Georgia and Ukraine, and he dislikes the puckish Mr Saakashvili intensely. He may not yet have ousted him (indeed, ordinary Georgians have rallied to support their president—so far). But by thumping down Russia’s military fist in the Caucasus, he has made clear that Russia will not tolerate excessive signs of independence from its neighbours, including bids to join the NATO alliance.

    This new Russian imperialism is bad news for all its neighbours. Mr Saakashvili is an impetuous nationalist who has lately tarnished his democratic credentials. His venture into South Ossetia was foolish and possibly criminal. But, unlike Mr Putin, he has led his country in a broadly democratic direction, curbed corruption and presided over rapid economic growth that has not relied, as Russia’s mostly does, on high oil and gas prices. America’s George Bush was right, if rather slow, to declare on August 11th that it was unacceptable in the 21st century for Russia to have invaded a sovereign neighbouring state and to threaten a democratically elected government.

    Yet the hard truth, for Georgians and others, is that pleas for military backing from the West in any confrontation with Russia are unlikely to be heeded. The Americans gave Mr Saakashvili token help when they transported Georgian troops home from Iraq (where 2,000 of them made up the third-largest allied contingent). And they have now sent in humanitarian aid in military aircraft and ships. But nobody is willing to risk a wider war with Russia over its claimed near-abroad. Among Russia’s immediate neighbours, only the Baltic states, which slipped into NATO when Russia was weak, can claim such protection.

    That does not mean the West should do nothing in response to Russia’s aggression against Georgia. On the contrary, it still has influence over the Russians, who remain surprisingly sensitive about their international image. That is why Western leaders must make quite clear their outrage over the invasion and continued bombing of Georgia. Few have done that so far; the Italians and Germans in particular have been shamefully silent.

    Above all, the West must make plain to Mr Putin that Russia’s invasion of Georgia means an end to business as usual, even if it continues to work with him on issues such as Iran. America has already cancelled some military exercises with Russia. America and the Europeans should ensure that Russia is not let into more international clubs, such as the Paris-based OECD or the World Trade Organisation. Now would also be an appropriate time to strengthen the rich-country G7, which excludes Russia, at the expense of the G8, which includes it.

    The European Union, which has too often split into camps of appeasers and tough-talkers over Russia, should drop negotiations on a new partnership and co-operation agreement. Visa restrictions should be tightened, and the personal finances abroad of top Russian officials probed more carefully. The EU should work harder at reducing its dependence on Russian energy imports and improving internal energy connections—and EU countries should stop striking bilateral deals with Russia.

    Let them in

    In the short term, none of this is likely to deter Russia from reasserting itself in the Caucasus if it feels inclined to do so. Together, though, such measures might give Mr Putin pause before trying anything similar elsewhere—for instance in Crimea, a part of Ukraine that is home not only to many thousands of Russians but also to Russia’s Black Sea fleet. The clearer the West’s displeasure, the better the chances of getting peacekeepers and monitors from other countries into Abkhazia and South Ossetia to replace the Russian troops which have been there as peacekeepers since the early 1990s, but which should leave as they are now clearly occupying forces.

    Most importantly, although Mr Saakashvili’s foolishness makes admitting Georgia harder, Russia’s incursion should not delay plans to let Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. Russia’s aggression will make these countries, and others, keener than ever on joining. The worst outcome of this war would be for the West to allow Russia a veto over any sovereign country’s membership of either NATO or the EU.
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    What? I thought the Georgians had military advisors from the US. Does this prove something of how they did their work with the Georgian army???

    I also read there are military advisors from Israel backing the Georgian army as well....

    ;)
     
  18. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    LOL IIRC they were being trained as peacekeepers and security type troops. I think that the Israelis and Germans were involved in training too. But Im not sure. Ill have to see what I can find about it.
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Intrestingly enough several countries have been talking more and more about changing their foreign policy because of what has happened in Georgia. And this seems to include mostly the possibility of joining Nato. it would be rather weird to see how the offensive in Georgia would "force" nations to join Nato as well as Nato having to accept these offers. This would perhaps make Mr Saakashvili´s gamble a success in the end?
     
  20. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I would call it part 2 of the gamble, and a scary part too. Joining Nato would tie other Nato members and if Georgia calls for help again , Nato would have to interfere which could have catastrphic consequences . I really hope this situation settles down in another way. Georgia is free to join Nato, but if we add the Poland missile affair to this, isn't Russia going to consider this as a threat and an offense and react accordingly , just as the U.S reacted in Cuba?
     

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