Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by DogFather, Aug 25, 2009.
Well done Mr. Leonard!
Thanks for the link.
Rebel – The article R Leonard posted, and some of the footnoted articles from other periodicals, pretty much sums it up. There are a couple of loose ends, but nothing that looks too serious at this time. If there are unreleased records (Isom’s Midway Inquest from 2007 suggests that the original HYPO logs are still classified, for example), then this might shake things up when they are released. But until that time comes, from what we have got right now, there is no reason to suspect anything other than the accepted version of events.
I wonder why, after all time, don't they just release everything. There has to be a reason, why some things are not released. Something they don't
want the world to know.
Well, here's what you do. File an FOIA request and when, if, it is denied, challenge that in court. Happens all the time, just pick up a newspaper. Go ahead. Me, I'm satisfied and don't see vast conspiracies lurking under every desk.
Oh, yeah, before I forget, once you have ALL the documents, you'll have to have them scanned so we all can see them. Afterall, why should we take just your word for what you say you've found. Works both ways, right? Especially after the example of Mr Stinnett.
It is quite possibly something they don't want to world to know. But that does not mean it's something that would support a conspiracy theory. Most of the things I did in the early 70s are still classified, at least until 2022 AD. No conspiracy involved, just things we don't want to share with potential enemies. "Ways and means". Some intell techniques still work because they were never revealed to the world at large. It's called "security". And that trump "let's find something to abuse FDR over."
Conspiracy theorists are always reduced to innuendo when they can't find evidence. "Well, he must have known." "We have the right to know." (Not at the cost of the lives of people in the field you don't.) Those kind of things are simply mud-slinging due to the lack of real ammunition. And for anyone who really thinks about the issues, it's a solid indicator that the CT'ers have run out of bullets and have resorted to mooning us.
I've read this thread three or four times, and it's beginning to sound like a broken record. The conspiracists keep reverting to the same tired arguments, citing the same sources ad nauseum, trying to bull over other evidence to the contrary. Are there documents still closed? Of course there are, but as OP points out, this does not automatically connote a conspiracy. To me, the evidence points conclusively to the fact that FDR did not connive Pearl Harbor as a means to getting the US into the war. I've looked at some of the documents mentioned by both sides, and it seems to me that those who see a vast conspiracy keep referring to the same articles, and those who do not see it keep piling up a variety of sources as to why not. I'm going with the preponderance of evidence. I'm also going to restrain myself from reading this thread again.
There’s no reason to suspect anything amiss from the records that are currently available. Whether or not the verdict changes with newly declassified information depends, of course, on what those documents say. In any event, it has always been ridiculous to think of FDR (a former navy man) acting so despicably. Not even Hitler would have done what he’s accused of. The conspiracy theorists probably speak more to their revolutionary suspicion of authority than to insights of history.
BTW – the absolute definitive account of the Pearl Harbor attack is under construction by Mike Wenger, due for release not earlier than 2010. One can be certain that he has bombarded the Navy with request after request to access to these documents, so that this puppy can be put out to pasture.
If facts were all that were needed the issue would have been settled long ago. But the issue isn't the truth, the issue is a belief system that requires a bad guy.
So what you are saying, is we should be grateful to Mr Stinnett, for
exposing the McCollum Memo and writing a well documented book.
Which may lead to further releases of classified documents, so we can
all learn more about this episode in history!
I don't believe anyone here is saying that. Stinnett's book is NOT well documented, poorly written, and jumps to unsubstantiated conclusions. The facts are all out there, only those who wish to enrich themselves selling books claim otherwise, and only those with an axe to grind in the anti-FDR camp support him or his flawed conspiracy theory.
Quite the opposite, and you know it, so, to be blunt, quit screwing around. If you have more to offer than Stinnett's BS, let's hear it. It is truly amazing to me how Stinnett can be repeatedly to be shown as a purveyor of the ridiculous, yet you one-source-accolytes continue to hold him up as the second coming. You should have been there when Stinnett presented his nonsense to the on line Battle of Midway Roundtable. They ate him alive and he dashed off with his tail between his legs. You can continue to repeat his nonsense, but you cannot hide from the facts. Make sure you check under the trash can before you go to bed, there might be a new dealer hiding under there.
Many authors exaggerate and add speculation, to make their books more interesting and sell better. I don't necessarily believe all that was said in the book. I do believe FDR, looked for a why around his campaign promise,
to not get us into a war. I also believe FDR took actions that he
knew would lead to war with Japan. The McCollum Memo was
accurate and concise, as to the strategic military situation the US faced, in Oct, 1940.
FDR as commander and chief, needed to do something to stop the Axis Powers. The memo was the start of what FDR chose to do. I don't see this as "anti-FDR". After the war started, FDR did a good job of winning it. Picking commanders like Marshall, Eisenhower and Nimitz.
Ah, the "Back Door to War" meme. Sorry, but that concept is absurd when you consider that we would have to start a war against an enemy and then HOPE the other enemy would decide to declare war against us. You say FDR made good choices when the war started. Did he suddenly grow a brain or was he smart BEFORE Dec. 7th? If he was there is little reason to provoke Japan into an aggressive act.
AND, if you know where to look (cough) you can see document from Stark and Marshall begging him to do everything possible to avoid confrontation with Japan for as long as possible.
Back door to silly, not war.
FDR and the US, needed to stop the Japs and keep the Pacific shipping
lanes open. What changed after 12-7-1941, was the emphasis. FDR now
had everyone on the same page. He could then focus on winning the war. So he could end his political manipulations (like the ones Nimitz would not participate in). FDR was also trying to provoke a war with Germany,
with his neutarlity patrol, Pearl Harbor just happened first.
When ever a war starts, each country wants it to look like the other was to blame and WW2, was no different. Stark and Marshall were military men and knew we were not ready for war with Japan and wanted to delay
the war, so we build up our strength.
Nicely contradictory, as is always the case with conspiracy theories. Gallup poll done in Nov. '41 showed that 71% of the American public thought that we would have to fight the Japanese sooner than later. So FDR's actions are that provocative.
And you still need to tell us why getting into a war in the Pacific would help fight the Germans. Especially in light of the Tripartite Pact.
I often hear: The message saying "Climb Mt. Niitaka, Dec. 7th" is a clear signal that Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor. Beside the obvious stretch-to-the-breaking-point of that logic there is another problem with implementing the information found in this intercept. The message wasn't decoded until 1945. The first time we heard of this "go signal" message was in 1944 when a Japanese yeoman who had typed up the 80-page plans for the Pearl Harbor attack was captured. He reproduced that document FROM MEMORY with startling accuracy. It was compared with information from the Japanese version of Der Frage and found to vary in no substantive manner.
So, the "warning that was ignored" was not heard for four years after the attack.
You mean they couldn't see a mere 4 years into the futer. Absolutley unforgivable.
Just part of the conspiracy to shoot ourselves in the foot to cure our headache.
FDR was a very shrewd politician and and I'm sure realized public opinion
was changing, towards fighting the Germans. So it was just a matter of
time, before FDR would get what he wanted (helping his buddy Winston).
Had Hitler not declared war, the US would still start building a bigger Army,
Navy & Airforce, a path FDR could not go down, because of the isolationists. So the war with Germany would be delayed a few months.
So what, it was still going to happen.
I have not seen enough evidence, to believe FDR had foreknowledge of
the PH attack. However, he did fail to listen to his commanders about the
vulnerability of PH and he did make a campaign promise he knew he was
not going to keep. The PH disaster, also caused the loss of Wake, Guam
and the Philippines. Forcing a war with Japan, before we were ready, was a serious error on the part of FDR. He did this for political reasons, which
cost the US dearly, in terms of casualties and lengthen the Pacific war.