Was the Wehrmacht overrated?

I might be, but it depends on what type of grass you are talking about.

 

Ummmm...... In the Beginning of the war no army fought under BETTER conditions then the Germans.
They had everthing and their opponents usually had nothing or next to nothing. However even under the best conditions and leadership, even the element of surprise and military experience, the Germans failed to accomplish their largest tasks on the eastern front, Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow.

Unlike the Germans who had virtually everything, the Russians faced the exact opposite, not enough food, little battle experience, outnumbered and out gunned sometimes only having 1 rifle between several men, not to mention the fact that the Russians werent even allowed to retreat or they would be shot by their own troops!!! Yet somehow the very same Russians managed to walk into Berlin after destroying the glorious Wehrmacht.

So name one army that can fight like them and under their conditions you ask?? I am going to say the Russians!!!!

 

No, they were not under the same condition. The Germans were invaders, and Russian the defenders. To most people, the task to defend is far nobler than the task to invade. So the Russians had the moral high ground.
The Germans were far from the fatherland, while the Russians fought deep in their own country, another moral plus for the Russians.
After the encirclement of the 6th army, the Germans were starving, freezing, sick, and dying; another big moral plus for the Russian.
The Russians have successfully stoped the Germans from reaching their objective, and now Russian winter is here to aid the Red Army; another moral plus for the Russians.
Without a moral high ground, the Germans still fought till they can fight no more. It is clear which army is better.
In comparison, as many as 50,000 turncoat Soviets were killed or captured by the Red Army after the battle. That is about half of the number of German captured by the Rus.

 

The odd thing actually is, I don´t know if you have ever thought about this, but if you Za had lived back in the Stalin age in the USSR the Great One himself would have considered you a danger and sent you to a Gulag or straight to the front during the war to step the mines, at least his policy was to get rid of the intellectual people because they were dangerous to him....During the thirties many top communists from Poland, Finland etc were invited to the Great USSR and they never returned...ever wondered why??



Well, that was a mighty side step. But on the main subject. I think we can agree Hitler himself overrated the Wehrmacht and that´s why he lost.

 

Now that's a comforting thought, Kai, thank you

Now, how far are we from the stage in this thread?

 

RNA

Hegra 1940.

Tobruk.

I'm not impressed with the Hallelujas for the Wehrmacht.

A band of mindless butchers that enslaved millions of people to work for their war machine. As for 'the rest of the world' having to fight them for several years to beat them; what if the Allies had stared arming at the same time as the Germans? There would be a lot of crosses in the Low countries and France with an Aryan superhuman under them.

 

I´d correct that last sentence a bit Jaeger, nothing else.

There IS a lot of crosses in the Low countries and France with Aryan superhuman under them. And Russia etc.

 

I was thinking about a solid blow in 1940 and no need for crosses in 1944-45

 

Thought I'd resurrect this thread for some new input as we seem to have quite a few new members on the board.

I still contend that rating the quality of an army on 10% of its forces as indicative of its overall performance and quality is just wrong. That is what most of those claiming the outstanding performance of the German army is based on.

On an army-wide scale of measure the US and Britain easily had the best militaries of the war. Neither nation's military contained any really pathetic units comprised of low quality manpower, primarily armed with substitute, captured, or ad hoc weapons of questionable quality and quantity, and without a reasonable degree of mobility.
Yes, both nations had units that performed poorly in combat, particularly in their first actions. But, the same is true of the Germans as well.
True the Germans generally had an edge in tactical leadership and often in the early part of the war operationally but, they never seemed to have one strategically. At the strategic and theater level the Germans committed improvised blunder after blunder. Their sometimes stellar tactical and operational success often masks the bigger picture and eventual failure of campaigns they suffered.

 

I must say that im so sure that the Wehrmacht was over rated, at the time. The Germans were excellent soldiers and accomplished an enormous amount in very little time. So in that sense no.

However the Wehrmacht in post war does seem to get more credit by some then it actually did during the war. No army is invincible.

Easily the best?

 

From the original post, my reply would be that if you throw a Lion in a cave does that make him weak?

I dont think they were overrated. I agree with what Slonik said mostly.

Oh and to say that only 10-20% of the German army did the fighting is not entirely true either. I do understand where you are coming from though.

 

It also seems like success of German Armed Forces also depended on weaknesses of its rivals and unprepared shape of Allies ( even big ones like Great Britain , USA and Soviet Russia )

Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe gained impressive victories between 1939-41 because as Albert Speer said once "Hitler didn't play the game by the rules perceived by his enemies" He had some innovative and creative sense in war and battlefield campaigns on land ( if nothing else ) Polish Army was complately unprepared for a modern warfare althrough it fought courgeously ( nobody knows that except Poland was chrushed etc...usual Goebbels propaganda ) and tank/airctraft tactics with rapid maneuver tactics of Blitzkrieg ensured its defeat.

1940 France and Low Countries Campaign is a little bit different. French Army was very good in profesional sense especially among lower officer ranks. High Besides French equipment was also quite good. BUT its its staff officers were almost from another age. They were still thinking in WW1 terms. Surprisingly so did German staff officers. Here Hitler's unusual backing and support of Manstein Plan ( attack through Ardennes and dividing Allied Forces into two pieces ) made a significant difference. No German staff officer neither French considered this kind of attack. Combined with airborne operations ( again a novel idea used in Western Front in 1940 ) , superiority of Luftwaffe in critical points ( better trained pilots and aircraft ) and slow reaction of French Command with wrong decisions caused German victory on France and Low Countries ( their defence was not organized either )

But once Luftwaffe entered Battle of Britain unprepared ( like its enemies before ) full of confidence and blind to its deficiencies it was stalled and unable to take a decisive result against RAF.

Balkan Armies again were no match for Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe. The mountain terrain had a significant defensive advantage ( if you have any means to defense ) but Yugoslav and Greek Armies lacked tese means ( in sense of equipment , training ) and political will. Yugoslav Army was fragmanted even before the war due to Serb/Croation conflict. And Greece defences were surrounded fronm three different points once Yugoslavia has fallen.

When Operation Barbarossa started again Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe scored impressive successes at first. Because Red Army lacked proper leadership due to Stalin's purges and hampared with lack of proper equipment. But once Wehrmacht , blind to its weak points , began to stall due to bad weather , long distances , supply problems and Russian resistance plus "Scorched Earth" policy , Hitler ( who was over his head due to his own image and previous successes ) refused to yield , compromise or bend in tactical sense. This is a common thing in most dictators.

And when his enemies began to win battles over and over German strategic decision got worse and worse because of Hitler's inflexibility and Germany's lack of resources. Allies ( who were chieldren compared with Germans especially in experience and tactical level ) at the other hand gained more and more experience , learned thair lessons in hard way BUT they directed their campaigns after 1942 very cautiously ( sometimes in an unecessary manner ) , avoided risks as much as possible. ( maybe except Russians ) That is one of the reasons why war lasted so long.

 

Here's 2 interesting thoughts from that Buckley book on British Armour in Normandy that a few of us ordered recently:

&

Not much more than a side-note to the overall history but for me it does shine some significant light on who's been overrated and who's been (perhaps more importantly) underrated over the years.

Cheers,
Adam.

 

I still think there´s some difference so that in 1940 you could still stay the Allied troops were rather intact although mostly encircled in Northern France-Belgium, whereas in 1944 after Falaise the German troops were rather weak to do anything but run. It still is a mystery how Rundstedt even managed to create a front after the Normandy losses really.


the fastest pace however must have been for the red Army during Bagration and January 1945 operations with the Germans in full swing fighting back as they could. Also the Red Army operation against the Japanese troops in the east was double-blitzkrieg paced, I think.

just my opinion on the matter...

 

I think the Wehrmacht was a very powerfull enemy but i think it was limited rather than overrated. The germans had a poor surface fleet sure but they could have brought Britain to her knees by dropping airborne troops and equipment in southern england, and using airpower had they won the battle of britain.
German economy was not geared for long term war until later on in the war, therfor shortages in supplies and arms would dwindle. Had hitler finished off Britain before launching barbarossa things could have been different, indeed if he didnt declare war on the U.S at all never mid whislt fighting UK&USSR again things could have been different.

I think the wehrmacht provedd it was capable of achieving amazing results and victories, as i did, but i feel that it bit off more than it could chew and along with disastous tactical decisions at Stalingrad and africa, it had no way out of defeat.

 

About Russia..

Germany lost because of the Winter (Almost every German in Russia died because of Starvation or froze to death). In Stalingrad how the heck can you still defend if you don't have food, you weren't prepared on the winter, -30°c even -40°c as temperatur.. How the heck can you defend against those who are prepared for the winter, know how cold it can be and it's weapons and armor are well updated to stand against those temperatur..
Germany didn't have anything while then, Russia did.

Second point is that the suplies of Germany didn't followed the troops.. Sometimes the Germans advanced 60KM into Russia. They were exhausted, had exhausted feet, no gasoline, no reserve troops, no food.. And then the Winter comes. Still Germany stood out long in Russia.

Third mistake of Hitler is that he used his railroads for Jews.. He didn't used the railroads for suplies, troops, transport the wounded or anything. He only used the railroads for Jews.

Hitler his mistake to invade Russia was that he invaded Russia before the Winter and didn't used his railroads for the right purpose and last but not least he was fighting a two front war.

Hitler made mistakes. If he really wanted to invade Russia he had to wait. Not fight a two front war and atleast have a good Suply-Line if you want to invade such a country.

 

I'd love to hear you back this statement up Sturmkreuz...


Cheers,
Adam.

 

What means back up ?

Anyway I replied on Ironcross..

 

ditto!

but getting back on track here, I do believe the Germans at this time were a force to be reckoned with, but I also believe that the information that reached the average Allied soldier may have been somewhat skewed. Therefore giving him the impression that the Germans were stronger than they actually were! This was told to me by a WWII veteran that was truly afraid of what the Huns had in store for them, then with some of the atrocities the Germans committed against our soldiers that added to the mystery of these men. Maybe this is a long shot but I still think they were just men, super-warriors.....no. Over rated.....yes. IMHO!

 

Following von Poop's prompt, and in order to commemorate my 4,000 post here:

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!

Tell us another joke!

Are you really saying "Almost every German in Russia died because of Starvation or froze to death"?

I can't believe this! You are overlooking those that died by traffic accident, hear attacks, natural causes, or fright by finding the Bogeyman under their beds!

Oooooooh, I didn't know the Germans had advanced 60km into Russia and then got hit by Winter! You learn something new every day!

Exactly, that's how Adolf got his nomination for the Righteous Among the Nations, for according to his citation "Providing free transportation to all Jews in Europe back and forth, sabotaging the Nazi war effort at the same time, all at great personal risk".

That's right too, he instead of invading before Winter he should have invading during winter, it's much more fun, they could have thrown snowballs to the Russians!

Yes, there are good supply lines, here's a list of them:
Shipping Companies

ALASKA TANKER CO.
AMERICAN PRESIDENT LINES (APL Limited)
ATLANTIC CONTAINER LINE
AURORA TANKERS
BARBER SHIP MANAGEMENT
CANADA STEAMSHIP LINES
CENTRAL GULF LINES
CHILEAN LINE (CCNI)
CHINA OCEAN SHIPPING CO. (COSCO)
CHINA SHIPPING CONTAINER LINES
CMA CGM
CP SHIPS
CROWLEY MARINE
CROWLEY LINER SERVICES
CSAV/COMPANIA SUD AMERICA de VAPORES
DIRECT CONTAINER LINE (DCL)
DOCKWISE (Heavy Lift Ships)
DOLE OCEAN LINER EXPRESS
EASTERN CAR LINER, LTD.
EMPRESA DE NAVEGACAO ALIANCA S.A.
EVERGREEN AMERICA CORPORATION

Follow the link for more!

Sturmkreuz, I do enjoy your posts, you are one of the best comedians we have aboard!

Now back into the nursery and come back when you can talk sense!