What If Germany Didnt Declare war on the Soviets

The new border would have crippled the Finnish defence system in the Karelian isthmus and as well the USSR would have gotten a position ( in Hanko ) close to our Capital Helsinki. The new land in exchange would have been almost totally unpopulated "desert" and Stalin could have as well promised the whole of Siberia as well. Would not have changed a thing. In fact Finland could have invited the Red Army to Finland if they had accepted Stalin´s exchange program. That was just a game to make it look righteous in the eyes of the world. I think the fact that Germany and the USSR had given each other priorities on certain countries with Ribbentrop Molotov pact proves this solidly.

 

That's another kettle of fish but it sure looked pretty on the map

 

Well, I wouldn't exactly call a full scale attack on your neighbor for

"lying low"....

Regards
RAM

 

"Lying low" in that it concerns the expected contradictions among capitalist countries, while dealing with the aforesaid "frontier adjustments", which were regarded as legitimate defensive measures.

I'm not trying to defend or justify Stalin's actions, and if I were I've seen worse in this forum. What I'm doing is presenting and explaining the other point of view, as seen from the Kremlin (or Russia) at the time. A pathologist does not have to be a necrophile.

 

Good point in airing that view, Za. I think that was a very logical thing to do for Stalin: letting the other countries to pound each other to bits allowing the Soviet Union later to pick up the pieces in an easier manner.

 

germany would have won the war

 

I thought Venezuela would win the war. For exactly the same reasons you give above.

 

I think it safe to say that if there was no Barbarossa, then Germany would have continued to enjoy all of the fruits that it was receiving from the Soviet Union.

 

Yes, but for how long? This would really depend on Stalin's patience. I have no doubt that while Hitler and Stalin refrain from taking overt action, the two would be sharpening their knives to stab each other's backs.

 

It was this action that precipitated the expulsion of the Soviet Union from the League of Nations was it not.

v.R.

 

No argument there friend.

 

Slava, are you a closet Trotskyist too?

 

How is this possible? Russia was responsible for the fighting of German units that otherwise would ahve forught the British and Americans in the west after D-Day. The Germans would have far more rescources that they wouldn't have committed to the Russian front. They could use these rescources to thier advantage against the UK and the US if it entered the war. The list goes on and on. There was a chance for HUGE successes if the USSR and Germany went neutral. But that is to say that they didn;t become allies...god forbid.

 

Lets assume that Hitler for what ever reason decides to fight his own personal demons and decides not to invade the USSR, well for a start he could have committed more troops in North Africa, imagine the senario that an entire Army Group was transferred to North Africa and in conjunction to the Italians the British 8th Army was put up against say 40 to 50 divisions Axis divisions (within this 6 to 10 Panzer Divisions) and say an entire Luftflotte or two, Britain with all her resources could not possibly repulse this, Egypt would be Axis within weeks and that the Suez Canal would be in Axis hands, meaning that the entire Mediterannean is an Axis Lake, soon to fall would be Malta, Crete, Cyprus and of course in the end Gibraltar, this would also put the Vichy French firmly into the Axis fold.

I would expect that after achieving this the Axis would somehow make a major push into the Middle East and with an additional Army Group being landed in The Levant two major thrusts being launched into the Middle East. Axis gains the control of the Oil supplies of the Middle East, Britain is starved of vital oil supplies, Germany and Italy begin to establish Naval bases in the Indian Ocean eventually cutting all supply convoys from the east via the cape.

If the Soviets don't move into Iran then the Axis will, i could se the possibilities that the Axis could reach India by 1942. Once the British have been blockaded with the numorous Wolfpacks sinking any merchantman daring to enter the danger field, by 1942 i would suspect that Hitler would go for broke and launch total war on Britain, with an all out attack on Britain, also to end Hitler refuses to declare war on America after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, the Western Axis has by this stage has a "Britain First" policy.

v.R

 

If the Axis couldn't supply the scarce forces it had in Africa, how can you expect them to supply and "entire Army Group". Never mind the losses, just think of the shipping required and that was simply unavailable.

This 'nostalgia for what wasn't' can be tiresome at times.

 

Deleted post for personal reasons.

v.R

 

1. Hitler informed Molotov that Finland was Germany's only supplier of a number of very important raw materials, but Molotov argued that Finland was a "threat to the national security of the USSR".

2. Why did Stalin take Bessarabia? He must have known that the Romanian oil fields were essential to the German war effort. I know it was agreed upon in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, but then we are no longer talking about appeasement anymore, this could only be seem as a preparation for war. Why would Stalin take the step and ask for Bessarabia? Did he know that would threat the only oil supply Germany had?

3. Why did Stalin make a pact with the Yugoslav rebels when the Nazi puppet was overthrown?

All of the above suggest that the USSR was preparing for a war, what would you have done if you were Hitler? The conflict between Germany and Russia may seem inevitable when you read Mein Kempf, but Hitler didn't write anything about having Japan as an ally or fighting a war against Britain, but it happened.

 

All the mentioned parts of land were negotiated in the Ribbentrop pact. So the USSR was allowed to take them whenever felt the time was right. Hitler agreed to Stalin´s requests in 1939 because he needed the pact in Aug 1939 desperately, and believed everything would change one day back to normal, i.e. Barbarossa plan.

I am not sure why Stalin really made the pact with the Yugoslav´s but the Slav ties are always very close ( if they meant anything to Stalin ever really ).

 

1. Yes. And?

2. Bessarabia was former Russian Crown territory.

3. Sorry, fill me in with details as I can't remember the issue right now.

I fail to reach your conclusion. As said before, the USSR felt the border was too close for confort to the country's second largest city so negotiations were seeked with the Finnish government. These negotiations failed (details unnecessary now) and Winter War ensued. Bessarabia was separatist national territory, what would you say if, for instance, California declared independence and joined Mexico, or Northern Irlend seceded and joined the Republic?

 

Za Rodinu

On your last statement, pure Soviet propaganda, Supreme Soviet Joseph Stalin was just as big of a war monger as Fuhrer Adolf Hitler, Finland was a soft target, Stalin never forgave Finland from breaking away from Mother Russia, and neither did he forgive the Baltic, Byelorrusian and Ukrainian territories for doing the same, unlike the Baltic, Byelorusssia and Ukraine States. Finland fought back, told Stalin to shove his demands up where the sun don't shine, it had nothing to do with securing Leningrad. It mattered not if Germany declared war on the Soviets, the Soviets wanted Western Europe and given time it would have invaded Western Europe and have Communist states as far west as Ireland and Potugal and enslaved hundreds of millions and murdered tens of millions.

v.R