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What If Germany Didnt Declare war on the Soviets

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by kingthreehead, May 3, 2008.

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  1. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'll have to ride with Clint on this one.

    Here's one example (of many):

    Twenty thousand may seem like a good number, but according to John Ellis in Brute Force, Viking Press, 1990, the Germans produced 33,804 combat aircraft in 1944. Sounds like a good number? In the same time period, the Allies, Western and Eastern, produced 125,718. These numbers are further represented in front line strengths for the Germans of 5,041 in Dec 1944 vs 42,787 for the Allies. For those of you keeping score at home, that is greater than 8:1 Allied numerical superiority.

    Explain how the Luftwaffe will be able to produce and maintain these 20-30,000 aircraft.

    Map out how the Royal Navy is to be defeated by the Kriegsmarine and how the KM is going to land and support forces on Great Britain? Wait, no don't do that, it has been beat to death in multiple threads already.

    There is no Royal Army in the United Kingdom. I beleive the term you are looking for is British Army.

    Cite sources.
     
    Slipdigit, Jun 2, 2009
    #81
  2. Heidi

    Heidi Dishonorably Discharged

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    Very true! Hitler wase only using Starlin and even hated thee Russians.
    Thee reason why Hitler attaked russia cause Hitler thought he could no longer trust Stralin anymore.
    Hitler thought that,when Hitler and Starlin won ww2,that russia wase going to be thee power house out of gernay and Russia,so Hitler invaded Russia to wipe thee threat out.
     
    Heidi, Jun 2, 2009
    #82
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Not quite right. Hitler wanted land in the east for "lebensraum" that required going to war with the Soviets. It was planned from well before the war started. Indeed Hitler didn't want a war with France and Britain.
     
    lwd, Jun 3, 2009
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  4. SMLE shooter

    SMLE shooter Member

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    He(Hitler) attacked Russia because he hated the communists and he wanted the oil.:)
     
    SMLE shooter, Jun 3, 2009
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  5. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Oil was nice but Hitler wanted the land.
     
    lwd, Jun 3, 2009
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  6. Wittman

    Wittman Dishonorably Discharged

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    Pumping up post count, are we?

    Okay, now the inevitable. Credibility of source. First of all I would really like to see which source John Ellis used in his book. Mine was from too many English documentaries I saw (Battlefield for example depicted each scenario in intrinsic details with layout of divisions, armies etc.). 20.000 is way less than 38.000 and I didn't even quote the number of Allied aircraft.
    Maybe Allies really built 130.000 but they deployed 12.000 in Normandy. This is as true as to say that Caen was captured/liberated in July. Or John Ellis says otherwise ?

    By now, I believe production of 20.000-30.000 aircraft PER YEAR is undisputable. Topic says "What If Germany Didn’t Declare war on the Soviets". For those in cheap seats, that means unlimited fuel and raw material supply by Soviet Russia AND way better protection of German homeland as most German airplanes were lost in Russia. Capish ?

    Your are right, I kept searching for the term and it kept eluding me...

    I hope it is not expected of me to count ship building capacity of each sea country. I said with direct/indirect control of Europe...as time goes by...ring a bell ? The British Army was stretched from Iraq to England and was no match for Wehrmacht. 2 Rommels panzer divisions kicked their ass all the way to Egypt. Royal Navy was also deployed around the world from Singapore (where it lost famous battleship), to Suez, to Mediterranean, to Atlantic and to North Sea AND to English channel. Germany's Bismarck and Tripitz ALONE would cause enormous problems in Channel for Royal Navy. And RAF airfields were almost totally destroyed when Hitler changed focus on bombing London rather than RAF installations. RAF was way closer to defeat than Luftwaffe but Hitler instead wanted revenge for bombings of Berlin that RAF skillfully executed. RAF could make no impression on German Navy as it was decimated at that time (October, November) 1940. And let us not forget plethora of German submarines keeping the Royal Navy at bay...
     
    Wittman, Jun 3, 2009
    #86
  7. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Let me worry about that.
    I am not going to debate tit for tat about John Ellis' credentials.
    I don't "capish" anything.

    Production is a good thing. Flying them more than a few minutes in combat is another. Please note the italicized words in my comment.

    yes

    Yes, but in the end, they couldn't quite close the deal.
    actually two
    If they could, why didn't they?

    I'll let the Limeys here discuss this one.
     
    Slipdigit, Jun 3, 2009
    #87
  8. SMLE shooter

    SMLE shooter Member

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    You are very opinonated.... However, the facts still remain, Germany, Japan, and Italy LOST THE WAR...END OF STORY.
     
    SMLE shooter, Jun 3, 2009
    #88
  9. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Only if they managed to sink in an inconveniant spot.
    No RAF airfield was out of service for more than 24 hours.
    The LW was fighter strength compared to the RAF fighter strength essentially declined during the whole BOB.
    The bombing switch was planned from the beginning as part of the campaign and recomended by the LW generals.
    The RAF was making an impression on the KM which itself had been decimated several times over at that point.
    While the uboats were keeping a good portion of the RN busy they were hardly keeping them at bay.
     
    lwd, Jun 4, 2009
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  10. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    "Raf could make no impression on German Navy" WHAT German Navy:rolleyes: ?
     
    LJAd, Aug 5, 2009
    #90
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